Feminist Theory & "Women's Issues" Discussion Thread: All Gender Identities Are Encouraged To Participate

those kinds of books are not anti-science or non-science either, i am a sciency person and i think judith butler et al are tremendously valuable. they help your brain grow.

lots xposts

Contenderizer has now posted some links (assuming you're staying out of the thread WCC, anyone else who is staying out of it) sadly I have to go to bed now as I'm up early again tomorrow, hopefully someone will check them out before too long...

Hate it when people feel angry btw, it always bothers me at a gut level when people I like and respect are angry. If it's directed at me I *might* react aggressively, but mostly I want to *make it better* and I can't help wondering if this is something other women-flavoured (and men-flavoured I guess) ILXors get too - it it just me? Is it something I've been taught to feel because I'm female and women are supposed to be social facilitators? Or is it universal, more or less?

(PS I do not have a problem wrt anger; I am in no way asking anyone not to be angry. Anger can be really positive. Or not; it's not for me to say how anyone should feel. I am in control of this urge to fix things, I think.)

The only thing to fight faux-science bollocks being spouted as truth is the actual scientific method.

I don't really have much time for Butler and other writers who use language to obfuscate. It makes no sense to me. Not in the way that ppl like Cordelia Fine and Deborah Cameron make sense. Sure, there's a place for both in the world, but I distrust theory without experimental data.

no Zora i agree and was about to suggest people leave the argumentative side of this alone for a bit until heads have cooled

The word "bitching" was chosen very carefully Contenderizer. I have found your tone from the start of that thread towards me snide and sarcastic - you want blowback, well you've made me angry so you've got what you were accusing me of.

Hate it when people feel angry btw, it always bothers me at a gut level when people I like and respect are angry. If it's directed at me I *might* react aggressively, but mostly I want to *make it better* and I can't help wondering if this is something other women-flavoured (and men-flavoured I guess) ILXors get too - it it just me?

I definitely don't like seeing people angry or making people angry & try to talk people down from it or make the conversation less serious usually. I am sad that a lot of people can't argue about things they are passionate about without getting angry! Especially those who have excellent insights!

Hate it when people feel angry btw, it always bothers me at a gut level when people I like and respect are angry. If it's directed at me I *might* react aggressively, but mostly I want to *make it better* and I can't help wondering if this is something other women-flavoured (and men-flavoured I guess) ILXors get too - it it just me?

nah I totally get this. mostly it just bums me out.

aw man ilx ate my post :(

xps okay but it isn't relevant to the point i was trying to make whether or not you care about judith butler. the point is that *I* do, and that many others do. the fact that her interrogations of gender and sexuality were important to many gay men and trannies, that is people who were not also lesbians like judith butler.

Pretty common social animal behavior right there, I'd say, Zora.

The only thing to fight faux-science bollocks being spouted as truth is the actual scientific method.

Without philosophy the scientific method would fail to question itself rigorously. In order to isolate cause from correlation you need the ability to understand the world philosophically.

I don't really have much time for Butler and other writers who use language to obfuscate. It makes no sense to me.

Butler doesn't use language to obfuscate. It's fairly simple to pick up how to read this sort of text. There's no need to be defensive about it. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to anybody.

Ah, I'm not sure I want to ask anyone to moderate their behaviour right now NV b/c I don't feel like the spatting has got to the point where the conversations are not working.

Everyone can judge that for themselves ofc. I can tolerate some discomfort. Very interested in all people have to say. Going to bed in any case. nn ILX x

No and it's such bullshit saying to people -especially a woman "don't be angry" when someone has gone poke, poke, poke at something that is the bone and blood if their life. It's Privilege, to be able to consider this stuff dispassionately "just theory man" and I'm sick of losing my authority when I become angry - because that is a classic double standard that gets thrown at women. Especially considering how much we have to angry about.

Fuck that.

knew you were gonna say that

Most people get their gender theories from stand-up comedians.

I do agree that if you're discussing biology, you absolutely need scientific research. However, a lot of what we are talking about is the social construction of gender, and for that you absolutely need sociology and theory and phenomenology and history.

and phrenelogy

and those little caliper things for measuring skull sizes

Well, you would need those caliper things for phrenology, yes. Are either of you actually making any kind of point?

I don't really have much time for Butler and other writers who use language to obfuscate. It makes no sense to me. Not in the way that ppl like Cordelia Fine and Deborah Cameron make sense. Sure, there's a place for both in the world, but I distrust theory without experimental data.

― White Chocolate Cheesecake, donderdag 16 februari 2012 0:45 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Excuse me, but you've been kicking a stir about how people here have opinions without having reads books you have read, or backing it up with statistics or research. But when Judith Butler comes up, you first say you haven't read her, followed immediately by a judgement, saying you "don't have time for her", as if you know her work?

The reason Con took his interests to another thread is because in this one people have to follow your view on things, or agree with you, or else you give them a hard time. People have to play by you rules and opinions here, or else...

These gender discussions online are just so pointless, they achieve nothing except bad blood and bad faith. I should have stuck to Yhom Torke's hair, but anger eats you up inside, and now there's this whole ~disapproval~ of the fact I said I was angry. Learn To Keep Your Mouth Shut, WCC.

Jesus fucking Christ. That's right "don't make assertions about testosterone without a citation" is a matter of ~following my opinion~. Yup, that's right.

science is a social construct

If I went on a thread and said "hey I think climate change is caused by dragon breath" without a citation, I'd expect to be given a hard time.

xxxxxxp

i was just list-building tbh. i completely agree about philosophy's place within scientific method, and wd have argued that privileging experimental data above other methods of sense-making feels kinda kierarchical in itself?

WCC for what it's worth i wasn't disapproving of you or anybody being angry and i wasn't just talking about you when i said i hoped people cd take a step back. i just hate to see anger becoming something that hurts the bearer rather than a righteous venting

so is gender theory xp

WCC, I am saying you called people out on their opinion while not having read certain books. You say you aren't familiar with Butler's work yet immediately dismiss it as if she "uses language to obsfucate"...

Science is just a social construct. True. But batshit opinions about ~testosterone~ are the gods honest truth. Also dragons.

WCC for what it's worth i wasn't disapproving of you or anybody being angry and i wasn't just talking about you when i said i hoped people cd take a step back. i just hate to see anger becoming something that hurts the bearer rather than a righteous venting

― dayove cool (Noodle Vague), donderdag 16 februari 2012 1:01 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and this, yes.

I knew I should have gone to bed - WCC if you think my post was a sideways attack on you for being angry, it totally wasn't.

I think people should refrain from insulting one another if at all possible, should certainly not throw kettles at each other's heads or stab with knives, but neither should they refrain from expressing anger whilst simmering in bitter fury until their guts are all twisted up and all their relationships have soured, or suppress their anger so deep that they become passive little lettuce leaves floating along on a tide of other people's opinions. Anger is an honest and valid emotion, it can be harmful and it can be constructive.

I just had a moment's curiosity as to whether my discomfort was another gender-related social construct because I have often felt at a disadvantage in situations where other people, usually men, have *appeared* to handle angry conflict situations in a less... self-compromising...? way than I do.

I have read enough Butler to know that I find her style immensely off-putting. You can get that from an online abstract.

if it helps this is something that i feel and think about on an incredibly emotional and visceral way. when you bat away things that i've just said have effected me in important ways as irrelevant i don't understand how that is any different from what you've been accusing people of doing on this thread.

I have read enough Butler to know that I find her style immensely off-putting. You can get that from an online abstract.

― White Chocolate Cheesecake, donderdag 16 februari 2012 1:05 (31 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

...

If you had said that you found Butler's style immensely off-putting I don't think anyone would have argued with you. But you didn't. You directly accused her of intending to use language to obfuscate.

also butler's writing now is somewhat different to what it was twenty years ago

and regardless of whether or not you've read butler, she is incredibly influential. someone recently told me that she was the most cited living writer.

Ok sorry Plax, I'm not batting it away as irrelevant. It's that your post came across as "lay off thd Judith Butler" which just seemed so off base to me as her work is not the foundation of my views on gender.

I don't like her style, that's not to say that others can't find meaning in it. But I'm drunk and angry and annoyed that I'm being accused of holding or misusing a position I don't follow, so I hit out at the position.

Jesus fucking Christ. That's right "don't make assertions about testosterone without a citation" is a matter of ~following my opinion~. Yup, that's right.

well, i mentioned that i was responding to research itt thread days ago, and posted some stuff in the other thread recently. you call me "snide", but i think i've tried very hard to engage you not just civilly, but with some hope of real accord. which isn't to say that i don't get "butthurt" from time to time, but i honestly don't think i'm the one driving this [whatever it is] at this point.

chomsky iirc xp

where is this because i've tried googling it!

most cited is... a potentially dubious distinction.

well, i mentioned that i was responding to research itt thread days ago, and posted some stuff in the other thread recently. you call me "snide", but i think i've tried very hard to engage you not just civilly, but with some hope of real accord. which isn't to say that i don't get "butthurt" from time to time, but i honestly don't think i'm the one driving this [whatever it is] at this point.

well you do keep coming back over and over again to 'it's just, like, my opinion maaaan' all over this thread so

most cited is a pretty good indication of influence though

Hate it when people feel angry btw, it always bothers me at a gut level when people I like and respect are angry. If it's directed at me I *might* react aggressively, but mostly I want to *make it better* and I can't help wondering if this is something other women-flavoured (and men-flavoured I guess) ILXors get too - it it just me? Is it something I've been taught to feel because I'm female and women are supposed to be social facilitators? Or is it universal, more or less?

― Also unknown as Zora (Surfing At Work), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:44 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark

oh yeah, i definitely get this. suspect it's a fairly universal human thing. and the "like and respect" bit is key. it's why the disapproval of your parents can be so devastating when you're a kid. i find that if i think someone's a jerk, their anger is much easier to handle.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1992/citation-0415.html

i've seen the bible cited a lot tbh

I *am* suspicious of Butler's style. I do find it obfuscating, that whole school of philosophy which makes complicated things even more complicated. My taste in philosophers runs more towards Mary Midgley and people who are able to render complicated subjects in such a way that they actually seem easy. But this is me as a data analyst, and a number cruncher by trade. These are the things that important to me.

well you do keep coming back over and over again to 'it's just, like, my opinion maaaan' all over this thread so

― gyac, Wednesday, February 15, 2012 4:14 PM (55 seconds ago) Bookmark

maybe, but that's not all i've said.

Is it Chomsky? Linguistics FTW!

(that is probably the most "obsessed Radiohead fan" thing I've ever said so shoot me in the fucking face now)

the only one i could find chomsky was fourth and butler third