Peggy was flawed, or at least conflicted, right from the beginning
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:15 (twelve years ago) link
banging Pete against her better judgment etc
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:16 (twelve years ago) link
i think megan and betty both seem real. with megan, the writers have tended to emphasize the positive aspects of the character, and with betty the negative, but neither seems unrealistic or unlikely to actually exist.
i agree that there's something off about the show's failure to equip megan with her own burden of mistakes, grudges and flaws. it's like betty has to be made twice as evil as anyone else just to permit megan's relative decency to exist in the mad men universe. she is presented as something of a dream girl, though not exactly of the "manic pixie" variety.
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:16 (twelve years ago) link
Peggy's flaws are that she slept with Pete and that she's conflicted?
― polyphonic, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:16 (twelve years ago) link
flawed in the sense that she was a person that made mistakes. she did not always do the right thing/react appropriately etc
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:17 (twelve years ago) link
well there was that one jogging teacher, but she was both innocent and clueless. megan has ben given some foresight and intelligence. really the most 'manic' thing she's done to date is marry don
― goole, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:18 (twelve years ago) link
xp - i don't think betty has seemed particularly evil this season at all! she seems to be much kinder and considerate of her kids; she seems to actually enjoy things in life (ok, so it's food that made her fat, but still!) she does not seem remotely beyond the pale as far as interactions with her asshole ex that repeatedly cheated and lied.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:19 (twelve years ago) link
this is kind of a key difference between Megan and Peggy - while both are sympathetic, Peggy has made mistakes. we've seen her be awkward, petty, vindictive, self-absorbed, etc.
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:19 (twelve years ago) link
flawed in the sense that she was a person that made mistakes.
Megan makes mistakes. She says the wrong things sometimes. She married a guy she barely knew.
― polyphonic, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
i still wanna know why Megan was constantly borrowing lunch money from Ginsberg and never paid him back. probably just part of her flaky pixie-ness and nothing sinister.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
she's grudgeful, sometimes mean, sometimes oblivious (her interaction w the new secretary), quick to anger, a bad actress (apparently), a pete-toucher, a frumpy dresser, a bit of a stick in the mud, a movie theater pervert, etc...
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:21 (twelve years ago) link
she seems to be much kinder and considerate of her kids
......................
― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:21 (twelve years ago) link
yeah, i'm not getting that at all. the most humanizing thing they've given betty this season are a fat suit and a dieting regimen.
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:22 (twelve years ago) link
yeah she was delightful to Sally this week
― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:22 (twelve years ago) link
she seems to actually enjoy things in life (ok, so it's food that made her fat, but still!)
this comment is intended seriously?
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:23 (twelve years ago) link
contenderizer, my point is that we didn't know those things about Peggy in the first season of the show, just like we still don't know much about Megan after less than a season. Megan is still a mystery to us to some degree, just like she is a mystery to the characters. Joan thinks she's a trophy wife; Peggy thinks she can do anything.
― polyphonic, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:23 (twelve years ago) link
compared to how she was to her a couple seasons back? When I said "more" I meant it relatively speaking.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:23 (twelve years ago) link
Peggy banged Pete in the first episode! and dressed terribly
xp
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:25 (twelve years ago) link
― sarahell, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 4:19 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
she used her 12-year-old daughter as a pawn in mind games with Don and Megan
adultery is bad, but this is way way way more bad. straight up horrible, childish, and evil.
― raw feel vegan (silby), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:25 (twelve years ago) link
she's using her child to get back at her ex. manipulating your kids like that is inexcusable, one of the worst things you can do as a spouse with joint custody.
― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:25 (twelve years ago) link
She married a guy she barely knew.
would say this has pretty definitively been depicted as NOT being a mistake on her part. so far.
yeah, and she's repeated the latter sin in almost every episode
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:26 (twelve years ago) link
Peggy banged Pete in the first episode!
I was responding to contenderizer. I don't dispute this. I also don't see it as a character flaw any more than Megan marrying Don.
and dressed terribly
lol
― polyphonic, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:27 (twelve years ago) link
so you think neither are a mistake, but cited Megan marrying Don as a mistake anyway? okay
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:27 (twelve years ago) link
pete is nagl. marrying don i can understand.
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:28 (twelve years ago) link
― Mordy, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 1:23 PM (3 minutes ago)
-- yeah, it is! It seemed the last season she was featured in she was miserable and super-depressed. I dunno, I just remember being severely depressed a few years back and taking no pleasure in anything, and being able to enjoy eating was a sign that things were turning around and there was hope.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:28 (twelve years ago) link
getting pregnant by one of your already-engaged superiors/coworkers - who also happens to be a slimy asshole - seems like a pretty big flaw imo but ymmv obviously
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:29 (twelve years ago) link
And not even -realizing- she is pregnant! That is a pretty serious flaw.
― she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
there are far worse things you can do. like this just seems like garden variety bad parenting that lots of people in that situation do from time to time.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
i guess i see the compulsive eating as being symptomatic of the depression, not as an alleviation or bright note in it. it's hard to imagine she's getting satisfaction out of it, but other interpretations might be valid too idk
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
It seemed the last season she was featured in she was miserable and super-depressed. I dunno, I just remember being severely depressed a few years back and taking no pleasure in anything, and being able to enjoy eating was a sign that things were turning around and there was hope.
that's an interesting read, i guess. and she was looking forward to the pleasure that using sally against megan and don would provide, so i guess it's a bummer that didn't work out as planned.
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
― sarahell, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 1:31 PM (15 seconds ago)
i come down somewhere between these poles. betty's manipulation of sally was shitty, but no more shitty (and arguably much less trivial) than don's mistreatment of betty. i still think that don is the show's only real villain, but this season seems to be working hard to change that impression.
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:33 (twelve years ago) link
― sarahell, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 4:31 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
o_O
― raw feel vegan (silby), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:34 (twelve years ago) link
yeah, you don't ever do that shit with your kids, it's just wrong.
― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:34 (twelve years ago) link
people do it all the time. sad but true
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:35 (twelve years ago) link
I guess the qualitative moral difference is that cheating is something adults do to each other, involving the children means harming an innocent
^^^^^
― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:36 (twelve years ago) link
I think both of them have made spur of the moment decisions that could have had bad results. For Peggy it did, for Megan it didn't. Judging things based entirely on the results is foolish.
― polyphonic, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:36 (twelve years ago) link
Betty isn't gargamel just being evil for the thrill of it. She's reacting (poorly) to things that have happened to her. That's why she's not so much a "villain" to me.
― ryan, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link
i'm not saying it isn't wrong, just that it's not evil-wrong. It's not suggesting your ex or their current partner is an unfit parent, absconding with the kids, refusing custodial visits, trying to seduce the ex ...
― sarahell, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link
fwiwI think Don's lying about his entire identity and serial cheating and general disregard for Betty as a human being is much worse than Betty's (still really bad) impulsive attempt to lob a grenade at Don through Sally.
― ryan, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:39 (twelve years ago) link
no, manipulating a child is way more evil than trying to seduce your married ex-husband, I promise. xp
― raw feel vegan (silby), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:39 (twelve years ago) link
not that I really believe in comparative evil but do you seriously think that manipulating a child is run-of-the-mill bad parenting whereas flirting with an adult is evil?
― raw feel vegan (silby), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:40 (twelve years ago) link
having been raised by decent but flawed parents, i feel that "harming the innocent" is an unavoidable part of the process. what betty's done is shitty behavior, but not some high crime. sally will get over it.
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:40 (twelve years ago) link
smh
― polyphonic, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:41 (twelve years ago) link
look, it's not like she was trying to get Sally to say that Don was a rapist or pedophile. This is some pretty minor manipulation.
― sarahell, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:41 (twelve years ago) link
i still think that don is the show's only real villain
http://images.wikia.com/madmen/images/a/a5/Pete-Campbell.jpg
― poxen, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:41 (twelve years ago) link
There's a sliding scale of that stuff. Surprising your 12 year old daughter with the fact her father had a wife she didn't know about and then sending her off to ask her new stepmother is some low down shit.
― Johnny Fever, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:41 (twelve years ago) link
i don't think any of these things mentioned are evil, but i do think manipulating a kid like that is horrible
― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:41 (twelve years ago) link
it's not like she was making it up though!
― sarahell, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 20:42 (twelve years ago) link