i've seen the triple oblivion ring loop happen on mtgo and it's pretty hilarious - if both players F6, then after about 100 iterations, the game crashes, and then it attempts to reconstruct the game by playing it out again from the start, reaches the loop again, crashes again, then declares a draw
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:44 (eleven years ago) link
another one i can think of is if you somehow make a token copy of Garruk Relentless, then get it to 1 or 2 loyalty, its triggered ability will just happen infinitely because it can't transform
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:48 (eleven years ago) link
i'm not actually sure whether there's any sequence of plays that can make a token Garruk though
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:51 (eleven years ago) link
yeah im trying to think of noncreature token permanents and cant think of any
― Lamp, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:56 (eleven years ago) link
well the issue is more how to copy it without the original garruk being on the battlefield, because they'd die from the planeswalker uniqueness rule. if not for that you could just liquimetal coating + phyrexian metamorph it
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:58 (eleven years ago) link
the most insane MTG puzzle i've figured out without help was the turn 1 kill on the play in Scars of Mirrodin Block Constructed
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:00 (eleven years ago) link
Let's see - you'd have to use Liquimetal Coating to make it an artifact, March of the Machines to make it a creature, then Cackling Counterpart to make a token.
Caged Sun is even weirder, you have to do March, then play Life and Limb and make the Caged Sun into a Saporling/Forest with Xenograft or Unnatural Selection
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:01 (eleven years ago) link
none of those cards remove the planeswalker type or Garruk subtype though so it doesn't work
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:03 (eleven years ago) link
okay in that case I don't think it's possible to do this unless there's some weird old card that can remove a subtype
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:06 (eleven years ago) link
planeswalkers hate this one weird old card
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:15 (eleven years ago) link
ok i think you can do it with Mirrorworks, if you do liquimetal + metamorph with Mirrorworks in play then the Mirrorworks token will use last-known values for the Metamorph and make a Garruk artifact
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:36 (eleven years ago) link
and that artifact wouldn't have the subtypes? wouldn't it make a "planeswalker artifact" or am I misreading section 403 a) i. iii. iv. ?
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:47 (eleven years ago) link
no, the metamorph would copy garruk, trigger, mirrorworks, then garruk and metamorphed garruk would die, allowing the mirrorworks token garruk to be the only garruk when it comes into play
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:50 (eleven years ago) link
Okay. I may be confused as to how that rule works. I thought that the Planeswalker rule didn't use the stack; as in, you couldn't respond to it, similar to being at 0 life and losing. Either way, I'd like to see how MTGO handles it; I can't imagine what their background coding looks like at this point. It's insane how complex MTG's rules are when you really break them down.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 19:23 (eleven years ago) link
thomp u live in london right? (i have asked you this like 8 times I think). Come along to dark sphere or something!
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Monday, 13 August 2012 12:57 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
nah i'm in oxford innit. i might end up going to london to fulfil these nerd inclinations i'm getting though. don't shit where you eat and all that.
― thomp, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 21:03 (eleven years ago) link
otoh the last fifty posts i keep trying to read and it's like a blast of white noise overruling any attempt to make sense of it so:
― thomp, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 21:04 (eleven years ago) link
Yeah, this conversation makes me think I'm not really ready to take on local competition
― Moodles, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 23:02 (eleven years ago) link
don't worry we're discussing weird rules corner cases that will never turn up in an actual game
Okay. I may be confused as to how that rule works. I thought that the Planeswalker rule didn't use the stack; as in, you couldn't respond to it, similar to being at 0 life and losing. Either way, I'd like to see how MTGO handles it; I can't imagine what their background coding looks like at this point. It's insane how complex MTG's rules are when you really break them down.― frogbs, Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:23 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― frogbs, Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:23 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 15 August 2012 01:13 (eleven years ago) link
bravo
― frogbs, Wednesday, 15 August 2012 01:21 (eleven years ago) link
Thinking of trying out mtgo. May be a less intimidating option than going straight to irl competition.
― Moodles, Friday, 17 August 2012 00:39 (eleven years ago) link
OK, got my account started up, now trying to figure out what to do next to establish some decent cards. Should I sell off my booster and use the cash to buy up some commons and uncommons instead?
― Moodles, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:41 (eleven years ago) link
iatee
― buzza, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:02 (eleven years ago) link
depends if you wanna play constructed or limited
i do believe new accounts get to do some "phantom" drafts...as in you can play and i think win prizes but you don't get to keep what you draft
― frogbs, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:57 (eleven years ago) link
I guess I'd like to figure out the best way to start accruing some passable card so I don't just get killed constantly
― Moodles, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:13 (eleven years ago) link
The quickest way: Look at the decks that are winning daily events, and then buy all of the cards you need to make one of those (this will be costly unless you concentrate on relatively inexpensive formats, like block or pauper. Even then you should be prepared to pay a fair amount)
The cheapest way: Take note of the most expensive cards in a given format, and then try to make a deck using none of those cards. The Magic economy is usually set up such that the ten or so chase rares are worth heaps, but then everything else is five cents or less. Obviously the expensive cards are the most powerful, but you can still have fun trying out tier two options, especially if you stick to casual (i.e. non-tournament event) games. If you go this route you might want to lean heavily on the cards in M13; almost everything in that set is pretty cheap at the moment.
The most fun way: Start playing limited (sealed or draft) events, and build decks with the cards you get.
― webber, Monday, 20 August 2012 04:18 (eleven years ago) link
Oh, also there are some bots on MTGO that give away free commons, and if you know anyone on MTGO they will probably be willing to give you a bunch of commons/uncommons, since having more than four copies of a single card is pointless and selling them to bots generally nets you a small fraction of a cent.
― webber, Monday, 20 August 2012 04:22 (eleven years ago) link
i've got shitloads of innistrad commons/uncommons if you need any of those, since i did dozens of triple innistrad drafts last fall. might have some excess stock of core set cards and other recent sets too.
my MTGO username is smh
― ciderpress, Monday, 20 August 2012 04:31 (eleven years ago) link
I really wish that you could trade away more than 75 cards at once. My client freezes sometimes when I even try to do that many.
― frogbs, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:39 (eleven years ago) link
xpost
Thanks! I'll look you up.
Is it ever worthwhile to buy cards from bots or does it make more sense to just try to win them in competition.
How much does a deck have to rely on super expensive mythics in order to win in Constructed online? Or is it viable to pull something together on a budget and still compete?
― Moodles, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:05 (eleven years ago) link
what format are you looking at playing? there are a couple cheap Standard decks, BW tokens and mono-green infect come to mind. those still need some rares to function properly but not as many as other decks. Tokens is probably the most scalable in terms of being playable without all the rares, while infect absolutely needs the 4 Inkmoth Nexus (~7 tickets each) but the rest of the deck is cheap
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:38 (eleven years ago) link
though on second thought i don't think i'd recommend buying into infect decks right now since those cards are all rotating out of standard in a couple months
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:50 (eleven years ago) link
Mostly interested in standard or innistrad block. Working on building a bw exalted deck.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:53 (eleven years ago) link
It also depends how competitive you intend on being. If you want to enter daily events or 2-man queues (i.e. put up some entry money and play for prizes), then you are probably going to have to cough up some money - giving up a significant number of percentage points of winning in order to save a few bucks just doesn't really make sense from an EV standpoint. However, if you just want to play casually, there are always people who either also can't afford to spend a billion dollars on mythics or who just prefer to play strategies off the beaten path, and there's no reason why you can't have a tonne of fun playing a deck you built around a junky rare in the casual room.
If you're just looking to acquire cards, buying individual cards from bots is always better than cracking packs - the expected value of cards in a pack is significantly lower than what a pack actually costs. The only reason to acquire packs is to play limited, wherein you have a bunch of fun and end up with cards at the end of it.
― webber, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 05:34 (eleven years ago) link
Also, even if you're buying packs I would suggest buying packs from bots - they typically sell packs at a discount to the MTGO store (I think a pack of M13 is around 3.3-3.5 tix as opposed to $4), since heaps of people are continually selling all their prize packs to bots in order to cash out.
― webber, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 05:37 (eleven years ago) link
Thanks for the tips, and thanks to ciderpress for the cards!
The deck is starting to take shape now. My plan is to use some of the affordable legendaries like nefarox and odric rather than raiding my son's college fund to buy sublime archangel, avacyn, and a couple silver blade paladins.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 05:56 (eleven years ago) link
keep in mind odric has anti-synergy with exalted since he wants you to attack with everything (though his ability is much more powerful than exalted in constructed)
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 13:18 (eleven years ago) link
like the best way to compete in constructed on a budget is generally to play a bunch of cheap efficient creatures, keep smashing them with everything, and hope they don't have a wrath of god effect or large blocker in time
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 13:29 (eleven years ago) link
I hear what you're saying. I suppose the strategy I'm shooting for is more of a hybrid exalted/soldiers. The idea is to score a bunch of early damage with small exalted creatures and then flood the board with soldiers and cards like crusader of odric. This gives the option of hitting with a whole bunch of creatures at once or with a single powerful creature like crusader who gets amped up by both soldiers and exalted. With Odric, Master Tactician in the mix I can force some mismatched combat or just keep the other player from blocking.
It may turn out that this is not focused enough to actually work, but I'm going to try it out and see what happens.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:17 (eleven years ago) link
i have a list on my home computer for a neat soldier tokens deck that would be pretty cheap to build and reasonably competitive. i think the most expensive card in it is elspeth
but: from a strict value perspective you should wait the six weeks for standard to rotate before investing money in cards. until then you should be playing 4 pack AVR sealed probably since it's both good value and AVR packs have the highest expected value. it's also a pretty good way to ease into magic although i cant remember how xp'd you are...
also if its at all a possibility and you plan on playing competitively than its better value to invest the money upfront in a tier 1 deck than to try to grind out wins with a cheap but unreliable tier 2 or 3 deck.
― Lamp, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:45 (eleven years ago) link
i dunno, i'd recommend just messing around and playing in the free play/practice rooms for a while before jumping into sealed events. i spent my first month or so of MTGO just having fun playing cheapo Grand Architect decks in the casual room
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:48 (eleven years ago) link
haha yeah thats fair - really my advice is only worthwhile if moodles wants to play competitively i guess?
― Lamp, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:51 (eleven years ago) link
the idea of just buying all the cards for a tier 1 deck and grinding it out seems so soul destroying
― frogbs, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:23 (eleven years ago) link
I'm really at the just having fun stage right now, though I'll probably try out a booster draft sooner or later just to get an idea of what to expect
― Moodles, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:33 (eleven years ago) link
i think new accounts now come with a couple free entries into special "new player drafts", they're phantom drafts meaning you don't get to keep the cards you drafted, but you can still win prize packs i think
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:36 (eleven years ago) link
One thing to be wary of is that MTGO obviously adheres very close to the rules, so be sure to read that little status bar on the left closely. For example most players who play Bone Splinters (Sac a creature: Destroy target creature) would sac their creature first, then target their opponent's creature - on MTGO, you target your opponent's guy first, then sac as a cost. If you don't read the status bar you'll end up sacrificing your own creature to destroy itself (I would see this happen ALL THE TIME).
Also, when effects are stacked, you can mouse over the card effect on the left to see exactly what it's targeting, if need be. For example if you have a creature that comes into play with a token and soulbond triggers, mousing over can let you see exactly which creature it's referring to. Again, very easy to miss this if you don't really know the interface.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:55 (eleven years ago) link
I had a situation where one my guys was taken out by Oblivion Ring. I cast a spell to destroy Oblivion Ring, but apparently cast it at the wrong time as my guy didn't return to the battlefield. Not sure what happened there.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:00 (eleven years ago) link
make sure you let the Oblivion Ring actually eat your guy before you destroy it, otherwise the trigger that returns your guy will happen before the one that exiles your guy, causing your guy to go away forever
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:24 (eleven years ago) link
LSV plays a few games with a fun Delver/Talrand hybrid that doesn't look too expensive here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/channel-lsv-wizards-standard-event/
― webber, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 01:20 (eleven years ago) link
that's still a reasonable amount of $ though - don't forget that Gut Shots are like $5 each despite not being rare (so absurd!). plus Inkmoth is up to 7 or 8 due to the infect deck's popularity, and Snapcaster is 7 or 8 too and irreplaceable.
i think BW tokens is the best deck for making a budget version that still does inherently powerful things. you could probably build it with no rares except Honor of the Pure and still beat people up with reasonable draws
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:22 (eleven years ago) link
the MTGO economy is weird like that because packs are pretty much exclusively used for drafting, nobody buys a box at a discount or opens up packs for fun because doing so is such a waste. thus "3rd sets" like New Phyrexia don't get opened up much since you only get one per draft and then 4 months later Innistrad comes along, and now Gut Shot, which is like a $1 card IRL is somehow worth upwards of 5 tix
AVR packs just hit critical mass, 3.99 a pop exclusively thanks to Bonfire's ridiculous pricing. meanwhile M13 singles are pretty much worthless so who knows what to draft now.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:31 (eleven years ago) link