Spielberg & Kushner's Munich '72 / Israeli vengeance film

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totally! and well... dude has skills! on display!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 26 December 2005 23:02 (eighteen years ago) link

i also never really expected spielberg of all people to make a movie where the final note is more or less "israel... not so much."

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 26 December 2005 23:03 (eighteen years ago) link

it's kinda the anti-saving private ryan in that way

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 26 December 2005 23:03 (eighteen years ago) link

between this, the chinese food, and the crushing guilt from my mother, i had a very jewish christmas this year.

― u saved me (dubplatestyle), Monday, 26 December 2005 23:04 (eighteen years ago) link

that's a good quote for the print ad!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 26 December 2005 23:06 (eighteen years ago) link

this christmas, get carbombed with spielberg.

― u saved me (dubplatestyle), Monday, 26 December 2005 23:08 (eighteen years ago) link

jess where did you see it?

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Tuesday, 27 December 2005 15:44 (eighteen years ago) link

i was in d.c. over the weekend; it's playing at the regal in chinatown. i dunno when it's hitting bmore.

― u saved me (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 27 December 2005 16:05 (eighteen years ago) link

very, very great.

― mark p (Mark P), Thursday, 5 January 2006 05:13 (eighteen years ago) link

i'd also like to second the american dreamz wtf.

― mark p (Mark P), Thursday, 5 January 2006 05:14 (eighteen years ago) link

this was really good

― latebloomer: Grab my puffy nipples and make a wish. (latebloomer), Thursday, 5 January 2006 14:53 (eighteen years ago) link

I thought it was pretty great. More entertaining than I was expecting. I was expecting a lot of brooding and moral agonizing, and there was a little of that, but much more spy-movie thriller action. I liked how he kind of explored all the shades of moral grey by testing the audience's ability & willingness to accept "collateral damage". Ie., is the mission still just if it requires killing innocent little girls? What if the innocent little girl is spared but the hot newlywed bride gets blinded? And so on.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 5 January 2006 15:26 (eighteen years ago) link

Hmm... I guess I should have put a *SPOILER ALERT* on that post.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 5 January 2006 22:19 (eighteen years ago) link

The first third was brilliant: a weary and destroyed Golda Meier ordering the kidnappings; the dinner-table conversations of the crew. The second third, with that marvelous actor who played Papa showikng Eric Bana to his country estate, was like the work of, I dunno, Eric Rohmer or minor Jean Renoir: scintillating country-house drama. Excellent.

The final third was a disaster. A crushing disappointment.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 5 January 2006 22:31 (eighteen years ago) link

Yes, I liked that country-house scene too. It seemed very odd that someone in the underworld would invite a client to meet their entire extended family, especially when they weren't even sure about his allegiances or mission (although by that time, I guess they had him pegged as Mossad). I mean blindfolding him on the way there doesn't seem like such tight security when he's going to be able to recognize all your relatives. It seemed implausible, but in terms of providing vivid and incongruous imagery it was great, I guess. I think the idea was to show that tribalism is not just a Middle East phenomenon.

I'm not sure why you thought the ending was such a crushing disappointment. It seemed to me that the film kind of just petered out. A few more members of the team died, he got called back, he retired... maybe not the most satisfying conclusion, but hardly seemed like the stuff of a disaster.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 5 January 2006 22:50 (eighteen years ago) link

The rightly-criticized crosscutting between sex and kidnapping was in horrid taste.

Also: the Papa family's Manchurian Candidate-style omnipotence didn't ring true either. It seemed as if Spielberg and his writers found a pat solution to an immensely complex problem.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 5 January 2006 22:55 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't see what's in bad taste about the flashback scene. He was having nightmares about what happened in Munich all through the movie - why is it unthinkable that he might think of it during sex?

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 5 January 2006 23:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Because he's coming as the horror peaks?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 5 January 2006 23:02 (eighteen years ago) link

And this is bad because? I still don't get it, unless you think the filmmakers were trying to make some point about violence being a form of orgasmic release. That might seem a bit didactic - but the film doesn't really force that interpretation upon us.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 5 January 2006 23:04 (eighteen years ago) link

It's bad because there's little connection between the sex and the kidnapping -- tonally and morally.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 5 January 2006 23:09 (eighteen years ago) link

I didn't think it was in bad taste, it was just bad. I was waiting for Bana to fling his arms out to the side and start making airplane noises, the angle was that bad.

― Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Thursday, 5 January 2006 23:14 (eighteen years ago) link

the sex scene towards the end was rather awkward, but it didnt ruin the movie or anything.

― latebloomer: Grab my puffy nipples and make a wish. (latebloomer), Friday, 6 January 2006 02:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah I thought this was very great. It has stuck with me. The sex scene didnt bother me so much.

― deej.. (deej..), Friday, 6 January 2006 02:49 (eighteen years ago) link

i kinda liked the sex scene because it had such an over-the-top ken russell vibe to it, i was like "really, spielberg? really?"

― s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 6 January 2006 07:05 (eighteen years ago) link

i did feel like the sweat was going come out of the screen and splash on my face

― latebloomer: Let's just say I do for bullshit what Stonehenge did for Rocks (lat, Friday, 6 January 2006 07:39 (eighteen years ago) link

and goddammit, the guy sitting next to me had the worst B.O.

― latebloomer: Let's just say I do for bullshit what Stonehenge did for Rocks (lat, Friday, 6 January 2006 07:40 (eighteen years ago) link

I admit to be somewhat nonplussed when I first saw that sex/flashback scene. I was wondering what exactly Kushner, Spielberg, et al were on about. It seems to invite some kind of symbolic interpretation. However, I think if you just read it literally - ie., the guy even has nightmares about this when he's cumming - then it has a valid resonance. Ie., it shows the extent to which this horror has permeated his consciousness. Even in the release of sex he can't escape it. It's jarring, yes, but it's meant to be.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 6 January 2006 18:40 (eighteen years ago) link

how did you all feel about the houseboat murder / nudity scene with the agent woman (some of you will probably know her name; I don't keep up with films much)?

I liked the movie, but like others are saying, only the first 60% is darkly fascinating...

― paulhw (paulhw), Friday, 6 January 2006 20:12 (eighteen years ago) link

I should have mentioned that scene. It was marvelous; you felt the mounting horror.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Friday, 6 January 2006 20:50 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, that scene was great. The earlier scene though when the old guy hooks up with that femme fatale at the bar, and the other guy goes into his room and sees him lying on the bed, there's almost an audible thud as you hear the hoariest spy movie cliche in the book landing on the screen.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 6 January 2006 20:58 (eighteen years ago) link

how can something land on a vertical screen?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 6 January 2006 21:02 (eighteen years ago) link

It's a metaphor, c'mon, work with me people.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 6 January 2006 21:10 (eighteen years ago) link

The sex scene at the end was bad for all of the reasons already given but also because what it's crosscut with is the final terrorist acts in Munich -- rather than his own violent experiences, which he presumably has more nightmares about.

That said, I liked this film.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 9 January 2006 08:19 (eighteen years ago) link

i liked the score! john williams was actually subtle and if the guy next to me has bo in the theater then i just say "fuck" and move

― howell huser (chaki), Monday, 9 January 2006 09:18 (eighteen years ago) link

The one thing I didn't like about the Eric Bana character's flashbacks was that it seemed like the filmmakers were trying to cut corners and have this one character's nightmares also serve the purpose of showing us what actually happened. But of course the Bana character wasn't there and couldn't have seen what actually happened. So his nightmares should have been based on his imagination of what happened. However, the fact that they used the same actors to play the athletes and terrorists in the supposedly factual flashbacks (which were not Bana's nightmares) as well as in his personal nightmares, and there was a continuity of action as though both were showing what actually happened, seemed to me slightly distracting. It would have been better if the Bana character's nightmares were markedly different in some way, either in terms of what the people looked like, or in terms of how it took place - though I guess that probably wouldn't really work in terms of the film - too confusing - though it seems like it would have been psychologically more accurate.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 9 January 2006 16:39 (eighteen years ago) link

I guess that's what I'm saying.

Also: nobody told me that the dude from Kings and Queen was in this (as Louis)!

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 9 January 2006 16:42 (eighteen years ago) link

its amazing to me how many people get stuck on the final sex scene, triumphantly trotting out the old "but he wasn't even there" chestnut as if their laser vision has discovered a hugely egregious continuity error that also escaped spielberg and his hundreds of crew members.

bana is flashing on munich in this intimate moment (nevermind that he's seeing it as it happened; it'd be too difficult to show us his imagined version without incurring confusion) because spielberg wants to show us two things:

1) for the individual embroiled in it, revenge by terrorism has no logical beginning and no end. although bana has no direct connection to the events at munich, it nonetheless puts a machine in motion that will consume him, just as future terrorists will be consumed in the act of retaliating against his actions. the fact that bana wasn't even at munich is a critical component to him being haunted by it.

2) 'home' is as much about piece of mind and security as physical location (part of a larger statement about the counterintuitiveness of endangering family to fight for land)

― mark p (Mark P), Monday, 9 January 2006 17:15 (eighteen years ago) link

mark p making sense, but even though there's a plausible explanation, the sex scene was still very WTF.

on another note, did anybody notice that the middle of the film is a homage to Ronin, right down to Michael Lonsdale playing essentially the same character?!?

― yuengling participle (rotten03), Monday, 9 January 2006 20:06 (eighteen years ago) link

YES!!!!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 9 January 2006 20:24 (eighteen years ago) link

i actually almost posted that earlier but ilx ate my post!!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 9 January 2006 20:24 (eighteen years ago) link

This is a quote from a friend of mine in response to a comment I made that the actual politics and the events of the story doesnt have to be accurate for it to be a great film:

"Normally I would agree, but in this situation I think it is important. The Israel-Palestine conflict is one about which most Americans have very little knowledge and a great deal of misunderstandings. In terms of historical accuracy, this film comes off like something straight from Israeli propaganda, whatever Spielberg's intentions. Because of this, as much as I found the film enjoyable to watch, I think its garbage and will have many negative affects on the Palestinian struggle."

I have not yet seen the film but does anyone agree with this?

― Lovelace (Lovelace), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:09 (eighteen years ago) link

It's Israeli propaganda to cast doubt on the effectiveness of a Israeli operation?

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:14 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah if anything i thought it was kinda wishy-washy. (the "late night heartfelt debate between sworn enemies" scene in the safe house, etc.)

― cancer prone fat guy (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:16 (eighteen years ago) link

i wanted a little "kill dem a-rabs" stevie

― cancer prone fat guy (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Never trust a director who sprays on his hair from a can.

― adamrl (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:17 (eighteen years ago) link

http://www.theleslieshow.com/hello/158/894/320/buttpastejpg.jpg

― adamrl (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:17 (eighteen years ago) link

Yes, that's sorta what I thought, and all I've been reading about in the film reviews. That's why I was sorta surprised by his comments.

He's an anarchist *giggles*

― Lovelace (Lovelace), Tuesday, 17 January 2006 20:18 (eighteen years ago) link

Spielberg tried to make it balanced, but I think he failed. The humanizing of the Israeli assassins makes them far more likable than the personality-less people they're mostly killing (most of whom weren't involved in Munich at all). The book on which the movie was based specifically mentions that the Israeli assassins didn't regret any of what they'd done. Ultimately people are going to walk away feeling bad for the Israeli assassins and not for their victims, whom they know nothing about.

― alma, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:41 (eighteen years ago) link

the nazis had mothers too

― cancer prone fat guy (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:43 (eighteen years ago) link

i'll just get me hat

― cancer prone fat guy (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:43 (eighteen years ago) link

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