are you an atheist?

But compatbilism here is more of a duck than an answer, no? xp

no idea. I just googled that stuff trying to figure out wtf you're talking about and found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#Free_will_and_determinism

I don't really get philosophy. Most of the philosophy and theology here seems to be needlessly overcomplicating things to me, so I'm sure my thinking on this stuff will seem dumb. What is morality and where do morals come from? They come from people who develop shared sets of beliefs over time through trial and error, usually as an attempt to benefit society. I don't understand how a theologian deals with the fact that morals are relative.

xp, why, Shakey? Atheism doesn't have to mean materialism OR determinism. Atheism and free will are not, so far as I can tell, incompatible on their faces without a lot of other assumptions built in.

If I were an atheist I think I'd have to be a determinist. As it is I believe almost entirely in determinism except I have this little religion thing in my back pocket.

"what makes us justified in thinking they are at all suitable to solving cosmological mysteries"

i think our brains are so demonstrably badly wired for solving global warming and vaccinating kids without fear of autism that cosmological mysteries are kind of in the "save the model kit for a rainy day" closet for now.

Strict determinism is a kind of deus ex machina. It removes the necessity to account for anything at all. Whatever happens, however it happens, it exists because it had to be precisely so from the first instant of time. Therefore determinism makes an OK ersatz diety. It certainly kills any requirement for making any kind of choice, or even asking further questions.

^^^what he said

Fancy a pint, then, Aimless?

also I have always understood "free will" to be explicitly Christian in origin (ie a concept developed to explain why there are bad things in the world/why people are capable of sin even though the world is supposed to be ruled by a loving god) so seeing all these smart people post about how they believe in free will but are not religious makes me scratch my head.

I'm in Mordy's camp in that I feel like I'm an absolutist re: determinism, but our brains are hopelessly ill-equipped to deal with the staggering forces at work and that's where spirituality comes in

it's just odd seeing people slagging off religion as a bunch of bullshit and then embracing an explicitly religious concept and its terminology.

But, again, atheism does not require determinism. Not so far as I can tell. And it also seems like there's daylight between "determinism" and "strict determinism." When I roll a six-sided die, I know for an absolute fact I'm going to end up with a number between 1-6, but I don't know in advance which one it will be, and neither does anyone else.

Wish I had a better grounding in philosophy so I could discuss this more intelligently, but it seems to me that a lot of people are positioning as opposites things that are not opposites.

BS or not, I've always been in favor of lightning staffs.

(Plus on a micro level it doesn't even really matter - even if the universe "knows" in some sense everything I'm ever going to do, *I* don't know. So whether free will is "real" or not, I experience it as "real.")

it's just odd seeing people slagging off religion as a bunch of bullshit and then embracing an explicitly religious concept and its terminology.

kinda similar to Nietzsche's point that the (christian inspired) search for truth results in the erasure of truth as a Value. (or whatever, been a while since I read Nietzsche!)

in that respect atheism as free willed and hyper-individualistic is sorta the end game of a certain brand of christianity.

I'm not saying atheism requires determinism, I'm saying it's weird to see atheists embracing a concept that is rooted in religion.

When I roll a six-sided die, I know for an absolute fact I'm going to end up with a number between 1-6, but I don't know in advance which one it will be, and neither does anyone else.

it doesn't matter if you know it or not. determinism means the result is pre-ordained based on everything leading up to the point in time you roll the die (the angle of your wrist, the force of gravity, windspeed factor, etc.), awareness doesn't figure into it.

So whether free will is "real" or not, I experience it as "real.")

clinging to your illusions eh? how scientific.

When I roll a six-sided die, I know for an absolute fact I'm going to end up with a number between 1-6, but I don't know in advance which one it will be, and neither does anyone else. Wish I had a better grounding in philosophy so I could discuss this more intelligently, but it seems to me that a lot of people are positioning as opposites things that are not opposites.

OTM. And doesn't modern science deal with some of this stuff re: quantum physics, etc?

quantum physics doesn't explain a whole lot about the level at which we experience things. there's this whole quantum gravity problem...

"a concept that is rooted in religion."

Is it? Again, I don't know enough about the history of philosophy to answer that, but it seems to me that it isn't.

Anyway, it all affects my day to day life in so insignificant a way, it seems like everyone else makes a bigger deal of it. It's the answer to a question, is all. "Do you believe in a deity?" "No." Doesn't really have anything to do with anything, nor does it reveal much of anything else about me.

Strict determinism is a kind of deus ex machina. It removes the necessity to account for anything at all. Whatever happens, however it happens, it exists because it had to be precisely so from the first instant of time. Therefore determinism makes an OK ersatz diety. It certainly kills any requirement for making any kind of choice, or even asking further questions.

We can affect things through our choices, though, even if our choices couldn't have been otherwise. And we can account for our actions by offering reasons, even if neither actions nor reasons could have been otherwise. Determinism doesn't seem to lead to fatalism.

quantum physics doesn't explain a whole lot about the level at which we experience things. there's this whole quantum gravity problem...

But if modern science is pointing away from strict determinism then how can atheism and free will be incompatible?

So whether free will is "real" or not, I experience it as "real.")

clinging to your illusions eh? how scientific.

― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, September 24, 2012 6:15 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And? Let's say I concede, "There's no such thing as free will, the universe is deterministic," where does that get us? I still can't get from there to knowing in advance what my or anyone else's outcomes are going to be. So what difference does it make if I "believe" in free will or not? Even if I don't, that doesn't get me to, say, shrugging off mass murder because it was going to happen no matter what.

"a concept that is rooted in religion."

Is it? Again, I don't know enough about the history of philosophy to answer that, but it seems to me that it isn't.

Here i sort of feel like we've gotten to that fragmented spot on the line of history where religion and philosophy and science and government are all split into (somewhat) neatly defined things whereas the further we go into the past they were joined together.

I think maybe my real underlying metaphysic is "glibness."

So what difference does it make if I "believe" in free will or not?

it totally doesn't matter! which is one of the reasons I found that poll so weird, "free will" had a lot of of vociferous defenders.

Is it? Again, I don't know enough about the history of philosophy to answer that, but it seems to me that it isn't.

St. Augustine yo

We can affect things through our choices, though, even if our choices couldn't have been otherwise.

this is just narcissism, an ant could say the same thing.

Maybe Karma should be invoked here? You have the free will to be a shit, but if you are a shit, you put shit into the universe, and then it comes back and is shitty back to you, impersonally, just as a matter of mechanical principle. If you shit where you eat, you will be eating where you shit. You have free will, but nobody wants the universe to be shitty to them, so you will still try and approach things a certain way, just because of how things work out.

But if modern science is pointing away from strict determinism then how can atheism and free will be incompatible?

modern science is not pointing away from strict determinism afaict. if anything they are desperately trying to preserve deterministic models to explain things - why do you think they were so excited about the Higgs boson?

xp

the problem with quantum physics is that it doesn't tell us anything useful about the universe above the quantum level - in fact, it makes predictions that directly violate observable phenomenon in the physical universe: gravity, light, the distribution of matter, etc. This problem has confounded physics for almost a century.

in that respect atheism as free willed and hyper-individualistic is sorta the end game of a certain brand of christianity.

ryan posts make every thread better imho

if anything they are desperately trying to preserve deterministic models to explain things

You seem to be conceding that quantum mechanics has cast some doubt on determinism.

the problem with quantum physics is that it doesn't tell us anything useful about the universe above the quantum level

Why is that a problem as it relates to the question of free will? Where does this thing called free will exist? Isn't it conceivable that it functions on a quantum level?

ha, thanks mordy! (i always enjoy your posts too)

When I was 13 there was nothing I enjoyed more than debating religion on some BBS, but these days I barely even think about it anymore. Anyway, I'm much more likely to encounter cosmic we're all connected b.s. than the old gods.

i find what the bleep do we know shit far more pernicious than either atheism or trad religion. probably means i should figure out why it's actually excellent but that stuff is just so toxic to me.

There's an epidemic of that stuff in Berkeley. It drives me insane.

i would prefer we (Americans) all go back to Calvinism, honestly, but that's my hang up. go hard or go to hell.

i'm pretty sure we're going to use advances in quantum physics to make faster iphones, fewer dropped calls. +1 for science!

is the influence + reach of calvinism in broader normative american culture + society also predetermined?

Is it? Again, I don't know enough about the history of philosophy to answer that, but it seems to me that it isn't.

St. Augustine yo

Greeks were debating free will B.C. no?

This is more a time-travel hypothetical but if:
(1) free will does not exist
(2) you are predetermined to choose a red ball

What happens if, knowing (2), you choose a black ball instead? Does the universe explode?

Having already performed one impossibility, all the subsequent ones just come along for the ride.

which part is the impossible part?

Another immoderate consumer of science fantasy hook slides into first base.

I'm pretty sure this hasn't been explored in fiction because it would make for very short fiction.

maybe a futurama joke?

at least a pondering fry meme image

Picking apart a hole in the philosophy of an atheist is not equal to the tiny probability that the unknowns of the universe subscribe to very specific, very conveniently imaginable workings for some reason revolving around the human, when we've barely scratched the surface of how enormous that universe is.

I didn't get to read all this, but I skimmed and noticed you arguing about free will. What does it amount to? How can it account for the giant discrepancies in what is more likely than the other as being the truth?

Hopefully you don't read this as combative, I'm just trying to get to the core of why I'm an atheist here. Oh and sorry to derail, too.

I don't think anyone was bringing up free will to argue about whether atheism is true or not. I was mostly curious about their compatibility. Also morality.

Oh OK. Carry on! I'm just venting my stance and was too lazy to read all of the new answers

Has anyone used godelian arguments re: free will to prove the non-existence of an omniscient god?