"what makes us justified in thinking they are at all suitable to solving cosmological mysteries"
i think our brains are so demonstrably badly wired for solving global warming and vaccinating kids without fear of autism that cosmological mysteries are kind of in the "save the model kit for a rainy day" closet for now.
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 24 September 2012 22:02 (eleven years ago) link
Strict determinism is a kind of deus ex machina. It removes the necessity to account for anything at all. Whatever happens, however it happens, it exists because it had to be precisely so from the first instant of time. Therefore determinism makes an OK ersatz diety. It certainly kills any requirement for making any kind of choice, or even asking further questions.
― Aimless, Monday, 24 September 2012 22:04 (eleven years ago) link
^^^what he said
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:08 (eleven years ago) link
Fancy a pint, then, Aimless?
― The windiest militant trash (Michael White), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:09 (eleven years ago) link
also I have always understood "free will" to be explicitly Christian in origin (ie a concept developed to explain why there are bad things in the world/why people are capable of sin even though the world is supposed to be ruled by a loving god) so seeing all these smart people post about how they believe in free will but are not religious makes me scratch my head.
I'm in Mordy's camp in that I feel like I'm an absolutist re: determinism, but our brains are hopelessly ill-equipped to deal with the staggering forces at work and that's where spirituality comes in
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:10 (eleven years ago) link
it's just odd seeing people slagging off religion as a bunch of bullshit and then embracing an explicitly religious concept and its terminology.
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:11 (eleven years ago) link
But, again, atheism does not require determinism. Not so far as I can tell. And it also seems like there's daylight between "determinism" and "strict determinism." When I roll a six-sided die, I know for an absolute fact I'm going to end up with a number between 1-6, but I don't know in advance which one it will be, and neither does anyone else.
Wish I had a better grounding in philosophy so I could discuss this more intelligently, but it seems to me that a lot of people are positioning as opposites things that are not opposites.
― a shark with a rippling six pack (Phil D.), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:12 (eleven years ago) link
BS or not, I've always been in favor of lightning staffs.
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 24 September 2012 22:13 (eleven years ago) link
(Plus on a micro level it doesn't even really matter - even if the universe "knows" in some sense everything I'm ever going to do, *I* don't know. So whether free will is "real" or not, I experience it as "real.")
― a shark with a rippling six pack (Phil D.), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:14 (eleven years ago) link
kinda similar to Nietzsche's point that the (christian inspired) search for truth results in the erasure of truth as a Value. (or whatever, been a while since I read Nietzsche!)
in that respect atheism as free willed and hyper-individualistic is sorta the end game of a certain brand of christianity.
― ryan, Monday, 24 September 2012 22:14 (eleven years ago) link
I'm not saying atheism requires determinism, I'm saying it's weird to see atheists embracing a concept that is rooted in religion.
When I roll a six-sided die, I know for an absolute fact I'm going to end up with a number between 1-6, but I don't know in advance which one it will be, and neither does anyone else.
it doesn't matter if you know it or not. determinism means the result is pre-ordained based on everything leading up to the point in time you roll the die (the angle of your wrist, the force of gravity, windspeed factor, etc.), awareness doesn't figure into it.
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:14 (eleven years ago) link
So whether free will is "real" or not, I experience it as "real.")
clinging to your illusions eh? how scientific.
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:15 (eleven years ago) link
When I roll a six-sided die, I know for an absolute fact I'm going to end up with a number between 1-6, but I don't know in advance which one it will be, and neither does anyone else. Wish I had a better grounding in philosophy so I could discuss this more intelligently, but it seems to me that a lot of people are positioning as opposites things that are not opposites.
OTM. And doesn't modern science deal with some of this stuff re: quantum physics, etc?
― wk, Monday, 24 September 2012 22:16 (eleven years ago) link
quantum physics doesn't explain a whole lot about the level at which we experience things. there's this whole quantum gravity problem...
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:17 (eleven years ago) link
"a concept that is rooted in religion."
Is it? Again, I don't know enough about the history of philosophy to answer that, but it seems to me that it isn't.
Anyway, it all affects my day to day life in so insignificant a way, it seems like everyone else makes a bigger deal of it. It's the answer to a question, is all. "Do you believe in a deity?" "No." Doesn't really have anything to do with anything, nor does it reveal much of anything else about me.
― a shark with a rippling six pack (Phil D.), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:18 (eleven years ago) link
We can affect things through our choices, though, even if our choices couldn't have been otherwise. And we can account for our actions by offering reasons, even if neither actions nor reasons could have been otherwise. Determinism doesn't seem to lead to fatalism.
― jim, Monday, 24 September 2012 22:19 (eleven years ago) link
But if modern science is pointing away from strict determinism then how can atheism and free will be incompatible?
― wk, Monday, 24 September 2012 22:21 (eleven years ago) link
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, September 24, 2012 6:15 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
And? Let's say I concede, "There's no such thing as free will, the universe is deterministic," where does that get us? I still can't get from there to knowing in advance what my or anyone else's outcomes are going to be. So what difference does it make if I "believe" in free will or not? Even if I don't, that doesn't get me to, say, shrugging off mass murder because it was going to happen no matter what.
― a shark with a rippling six pack (Phil D.), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:22 (eleven years ago) link
Here i sort of feel like we've gotten to that fragmented spot on the line of history where religion and philosophy and science and government are all split into (somewhat) neatly defined things whereas the further we go into the past they were joined together.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:22 (eleven years ago) link
I think maybe my real underlying metaphysic is "glibness."
― a shark with a rippling six pack (Phil D.), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:23 (eleven years ago) link
So what difference does it make if I "believe" in free will or not?
it totally doesn't matter! which is one of the reasons I found that poll so weird, "free will" had a lot of of vociferous defenders.
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:24 (eleven years ago) link
St. Augustine yo
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:26 (eleven years ago) link
We can affect things through our choices, though, even if our choices couldn't have been otherwise.
this is just narcissism, an ant could say the same thing.
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:28 (eleven years ago) link
Maybe Karma should be invoked here? You have the free will to be a shit, but if you are a shit, you put shit into the universe, and then it comes back and is shitty back to you, impersonally, just as a matter of mechanical principle. If you shit where you eat, you will be eating where you shit. You have free will, but nobody wants the universe to be shitty to them, so you will still try and approach things a certain way, just because of how things work out.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:32 (eleven years ago) link
modern science is not pointing away from strict determinism afaict. if anything they are desperately trying to preserve deterministic models to explain things - why do you think they were so excited about the Higgs boson?
xp
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:33 (eleven years ago) link
the problem with quantum physics is that it doesn't tell us anything useful about the universe above the quantum level - in fact, it makes predictions that directly violate observable phenomenon in the physical universe: gravity, light, the distribution of matter, etc. This problem has confounded physics for almost a century.
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 September 2012 22:35 (eleven years ago) link
ryan posts make every thread better imho
― Mordy, Monday, 24 September 2012 22:51 (eleven years ago) link
if anything they are desperately trying to preserve deterministic models to explain things
You seem to be conceding that quantum mechanics has cast some doubt on determinism.
the problem with quantum physics is that it doesn't tell us anything useful about the universe above the quantum level
Why is that a problem as it relates to the question of free will? Where does this thing called free will exist? Isn't it conceivable that it functions on a quantum level?
― wk, Monday, 24 September 2012 22:58 (eleven years ago) link
ha, thanks mordy! (i always enjoy your posts too)
― ryan, Monday, 24 September 2012 23:00 (eleven years ago) link
When I was 13 there was nothing I enjoyed more than debating religion on some BBS, but these days I barely even think about it anymore. Anyway, I'm much more likely to encounter cosmic we're all connected b.s. than the old gods.
― pun lovin criminal (polyphonic), Monday, 24 September 2012 23:04 (eleven years ago) link
i find what the bleep do we know shit far more pernicious than either atheism or trad religion. probably means i should figure out why it's actually excellent but that stuff is just so toxic to me.
― Mordy, Monday, 24 September 2012 23:07 (eleven years ago) link
There's an epidemic of that stuff in Berkeley. It drives me insane.
― pun lovin criminal (polyphonic), Monday, 24 September 2012 23:08 (eleven years ago) link
i would prefer we (Americans) all go back to Calvinism, honestly, but that's my hang up. go hard or go to hell.
― ryan, Monday, 24 September 2012 23:09 (eleven years ago) link
i'm pretty sure we're going to use advances in quantum physics to make faster iphones, fewer dropped calls. +1 for science!
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 24 September 2012 23:09 (eleven years ago) link
is the influence + reach of calvinism in broader normative american culture + society also predetermined?
― Mordy, Monday, 24 September 2012 23:13 (eleven years ago) link
Is it? Again, I don't know enough about the history of philosophy to answer that, but it seems to me that it isn't.St. Augustine yo
Greeks were debating free will B.C. no?
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Tuesday, 25 September 2012 00:19 (eleven years ago) link
This is more a time-travel hypothetical but if:(1) free will does not exist(2) you are predetermined to choose a red ball
What happens if, knowing (2), you choose a black ball instead? Does the universe explode?
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 00:24 (eleven years ago) link
Having already performed one impossibility, all the subsequent ones just come along for the ride.
― Aimless, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 01:01 (eleven years ago) link
which part is the impossible part?
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 01:21 (eleven years ago) link
Another immoderate consumer of science fantasy hook slides into first base.
― Aimless, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 01:24 (eleven years ago) link
I'm pretty sure this hasn't been explored in fiction because it would make for very short fiction.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 01:33 (eleven years ago) link
maybe a futurama joke?
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 01:34 (eleven years ago) link
at least a pondering fry meme image
― Mordy, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 01:53 (eleven years ago) link
Picking apart a hole in the philosophy of an atheist is not equal to the tiny probability that the unknowns of the universe subscribe to very specific, very conveniently imaginable workings for some reason revolving around the human, when we've barely scratched the surface of how enormous that universe is.
I didn't get to read all this, but I skimmed and noticed you arguing about free will. What does it amount to? How can it account for the giant discrepancies in what is more likely than the other as being the truth?
Hopefully you don't read this as combative, I'm just trying to get to the core of why I'm an atheist here. Oh and sorry to derail, too.
― Evan, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 02:08 (eleven years ago) link
I don't think anyone was bringing up free will to argue about whether atheism is true or not. I was mostly curious about their compatibility. Also morality.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 02:11 (eleven years ago) link
Oh OK. Carry on! I'm just venting my stance and was too lazy to read all of the new answers
― Evan, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 02:15 (eleven years ago) link
Has anyone used godelian arguments re: free will to prove the non-existence of an omniscient god?
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 02:20 (eleven years ago) link
I just get bothered when I see atheists and theists arguing over why one little aspect of religious text or theory is true or not (unless it springs from a specific context like gay marriage) and the overarching point, to me, is not addressed.
― Evan, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 03:15 (eleven years ago) link
I posted this on another thread but I thought this Neil Tyson vid was OTM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzSMC5rWvos
― The Most Typical and Popular Girl Rider (Crabbits), Tuesday, 25 September 2012 03:17 (eleven years ago) link
Oh I totally agree about being tied to a "movement," and I would rather not call myself an atheist but it's confusing to say I'm not an atheist cause I hate that baggage but I am, basically.
As much as I want to agree about how silly it is to have a word for not being something, religion has been dominating enough to make a word for not believing necessary, and you know what, I'll just call myself a non-believer. Hate the atheist label a lot.
― Evan, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 03:27 (eleven years ago) link