are you an atheist?

Shakey the point isn't that any religion directly endorses it, but that a religious mindset allows people to take up that viewpoint.

Good thing religious tenets are never perverted then right?

i think it's a misreading of Calvinism to think it boils down to "fuck those losers they deserve it"--that weapon was often as not turned against the self.

i'd say that the mindset of charity being a spiritual obligation rather than one of the state is where most of the harm would come in.

If it's not god, it's Adam Smith, or Ayn Rand, or evolution, or genes, or pretty much anything we can dream of to give our thoughts, basises, emotions, prejudices, etc. authority.

Again, why not rally against one of these sources of thinking? And religious thought is so rigid, it biases and prejudices seem rubbery in comparison. God says it is so. Ok, that's the end of the "debate".

religion and ideology go together like shit and stink

i think they overlap quite a bit, but it's (imo) a misjudgment to conflate them. if anything (in christianity) they are often in tension. when jonathan edwards says "the only law is love" (a calvinist!) it's not hard to read that as a pretty radical statement AGAINST dominating ideologies of any kind that.

and yes that's the SAME edwards who wrote "sinners in the hands of an angry god" which kinda makes the point for the multivalency of religious belief.

but that a religious mindset allows people to take up that viewpoint.

it's more like people adopt whatever tools are handy to justify their own assholishness - religion is just one tool among many, it is not the source of the assholishness, merely the cover.

right so get rid of it and you have one less asshole cover

i think it would be very difficult to sustain a religion without an ideology, and likewise very difficult to sustain an ideology without it accreting into an actual religion that there's no harm in conflating them.

which also happens to be the prob the most prevalent and intractable one

Yeah, I think the modern manifestation of GOP Christianity provides about the biggest contrast between religion and ideology I can think of. Many of those people seem to be not only ignorant of but hostile to the tenets of the NT.

right. i think conflating them is almost precisely the problem when it comes to fundamentalism. and that goes for atheism too.

what's that old cliche attributed to Gandhi? "what do you think of Western Christianity?" "I think it would be a good idea."

I don't think GOP Christianity is against kindness and charity, but it objects to those things being administered in a secular setting.

right so get rid of it and you have one less asshole cover

baby/bathwater etc plus there's all these other babies (capitalism, communism, fascism, objectivism etc) that are demonstrably worse and often don't possess religion's redeeming qualities

ryan, he was asked about Western Civilization

Tbf to American Christians, they're not usually great sticklers for theology or liturgy.

conflating them is bad if you're speaking purely academically, sure. but religion is not an abstract concept. dogma backed by supernatural righteousness almost inevitably leads to perverted ideology.

also humanity is not close to getting rid of religion. the US will sooner elect a third party candidate.

I am mildly anti-clerical in a decidedly Western tradition but I'm really not even going to think about spending too much energy on 'getting rid of religion'.

you're right! sorry. but i think i kinda like my mis-quote. maybe someone else said something similar because that was floating around in my head.

the baby is being drown, but eh whatever there's just gonna be more water coming in so let's not try to plug that hole. sorry, just don't get this way of thinking about things.

the 20th centuries attempts to do so were pretty disastrous and counter-productive not to mention ham-fisted and overly authoritarian.

shakey you obviously don't agree that communism et al... are religions but where do you come down on things like say scientology, mormonism?

maybe let's phrase it the other way: what about atheism prevents it from falling into the same traps/problems/totalitarianisms? That it's "right"? That it's based on "science"? That it's "self-critical"?

it's not about "getting rid of religion" so much as not being content to sit on the sidelines and watch religous people constantly and horribly fuck things up for everyone.

capitalism, communism, fascism, objectivism etc

so none of these should be restrained or challenged either?

but it objects to those things being administered in a secular setting.

I cannot recall if it was Naipaul but some Islamophobe once sneered that since alms-giving is one of the pillars of that faith, they always make sure to have lots of poor ppl.

fight the power, Granny Dainger.

don't be jaded and condescending. that's my next thing to get rid of after religion.

maybe after that u can get rid of humans

so none of these should be restrained or challenged either?

I'm saying their demonstrably worse and should be challenged first

i kinda like my mis-quote. maybe someone else said something similar because that was floating around in my head.

There's this Ghandi quote:

"The message of Jesus, as I understand it, is contained in his Sermon on the Mount unadulterated and taken as a whole. I can tell you that in my humble opinion, much of what passes as Christianity is a negation of the Sermon on the Mount."

http://books.google.com/books?id=dRQcKsx-YgQC&lpg=PA106&ots=3anT7ikKXQ&dq=gandhi%20sermon%20on%20the%20mount&pg=PA107#v=onepage&q=gandhi%20sermon%20on%20the%20mount&f=false

where do you come down on things like say scientology, mormonism?

these are both obviously religions

scientology less obviously. iirc they weren't even sure they wanted to be a religion instead of a corporation, but l ron wanted the tax exemption

maybe after that u can get rid of humans

????

the scientologists i've spoken to pretty much deny that they are a religion -- that they're fully compatible with all faiths.

they weren't even sure they wanted to be a religion instead of a corporation, but l ron wanted the tax exemption

this is true but the longer the endure, the more like other religions they become. a money-grubbing, bizarre religion still.

that they're fully compatible with all faiths.

Buddhists say this too btw

well should buddhism be thought of as a religion any more than scientology then?

don't be jaded and condescending. that's my next thing to get rid of after religion.

http://www.corliss-lamont.org/hsmny/TPB-John_Lennon_Imagine_Memorial.jpg

the buddha was pretty adamant about not being a "god" or anything like that. he was interested in method.

so none of these should be restrained or challenged either?

I'm saying their demonstrably worse and should be challenged first

Fair enough, though I think they all can be challenged simultaneously.

meditation = auditing, I guess, if we're following these similarities

It's a bit of a shibboleth for the religious to feel that w/o the restraints of an explictly revealed morality, atheists in power will devolve into monstrous Maoists or nihilistic solipsists or fatuous materialist pigs or get into eugenics or whatnot.

it's not hard to imagine tho that after the atheists 'get rid of' religion they might have some other ppl they want to get rid of too.

eh I don't think religion's restrained any of those impulses in our leaders, atheists or otherwise

"but the longer the endure, the more like other religions they become"
this can't be the qualifier since capitalism's been around for as long as scientology (and you could argue capitalism is the root ideology on which scientology was grafted the same as christianity is to mormonism)

religion is a person?