Israel to World: "Suck It."

The quality gap between Chomsky's academic linguistic work and his political work is always stunning to me. The breadth of his insight after a trip to Gaza is that "it’s a pressure cooker, could blow up." Thanks, Chomsky.

"The overwhelming feeling everyone gets is somebody else is in total control of you. There’s an arbitrary authority who can control anything you do. Stand up, sit down, you know, find something to eat, go to the bathroom—whatever it may be, they all determine it; you can’t do anything." Does he mean Hamas? Does he mean Israel? What specific policies is he referring to? Is this something he picked up through interviews? Who did he interview? In what areas of Gaza? It's just an utter journalism fail.

http://forward.com/articles/166143/rocket-from-gaza-hits-tel-aviv-suburb/

"Among others killed in Israeli air strikes in the last two days was the 11-month-old son of a BBC Arabic Service picture editor in Gaza City. The child, Omar, died from severe burns in hospital. His brother and uncle were critically injured."

"Pinpoint"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/11/15/the-story-behind-the-photo-journalists-11-month-old-son-killed-in-gaza-strikes/

http://i.imgur.com/JhxYZ.jpg

Apparently friends of mine knew the pregnant mother in Kiryat Malachi. The three civilians were all Chabad.

2 missiles on Tel Aviv - the previous were back in 1991.

In what universe would the Israeli strike yesterday not invite this kind of response? All other considerations aside for one moment, it was militarily idiotic. The Israelis who died in the last 24 hours would still be alive if not for that operation.

Are you kidding me?

Makes a bit more sense to include today's 'retaliation' as a continuation of the < 600 rocket attacks that preceded yesterday's strike.

is it reasonable to let Hamas and The Islamic Jihad fire endless rockets toward southern cities? to injure and kill Israeli soldiers?

xpost
that's what i was thinking. and it's not like there's the ablility to aim those rockets that are fired/lobbed. chances are like hundreds of thousands to one that someone gets hit by one of those things

People have been hit and injured and killed "by one of those things."

whats reasonable is that things always look different from an outside point of view than from an inside one

I would suggest that it's possible to be sympathetic to Israel while believing that its current government is a fucking disaster.

Yes, you certainly seem like an expert on the current Israeli government. Please tell me about how the Gaza Hamas rocket campaign relates to settlements in East Jerusalem or the West Bank.

it is a disaster, but not because of whats going on right now.

Netanyahu is a much better PM than both Olmert and Sharon, imho.

why?

Because he's used diplomacy to essentially halt the Iranian nuclear program, Gaza and the West Bank are both experiencing economic growth under his tenure, he hasn't invaded Lebanon or lead a disaster (yet) on the scale of Operation Cast Lead. I think that people forget how terrible Sharon/Olmert was.

the sad thing is that this operation will result only in a temporary quietness, as it always have been in the area.
but temporary is something, which is better than nothing, in the middle east.

I think former President of URJ Eric Yoffie's op-ed in Haaretz today makes the case for a response to Gaza very eloquently and persuasively.

Progressives, of course, want the use of force to be a last resort. But it would be hard to imagine a case where Israel was more patient than Gaza. Sderot and the surrounding communities have been subjected to missile fire from Gaza for 11 years. With sickening regularity, rockets fall on civilian centers and hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens flee to shelters. Israel responds, usually with modest force aimed at lower level operatives, the violence stops for a while, and then the cycle begins again.

Progressives should be as outraged as everyone else about this. As innumerable Israeli leaders have said, no other civilized country in the world would tolerate for a week what Israel has tolerated for a decade; a single rocket aimed at an American city would call forth a far more drastic response than anything that Israel has attempted or even contemplated. And yet, incredibly, despite her tough talk, Israel has tolerated these attacks – with the exception of Cast Lead, which brought a respite from the violence, although only for a while.

The greatest outrage here, of course, is the human toll on Israelis in the south. I have read account after account, year after year, of the children of Sderot and surrounding communities who wake up crying, wet their beds, and cling to their parents and teachers in incomprehension and terror. There is not a school or a day-care center without a bomb shelter. Under what circumstances could that possibly be acceptable?

mordy otm

yoffie otm

In Gaza itself, the emergence of radical militant organizations, largely beyond the control of the ruling Hamas, make the consequences of Israel’s operation highly unpredictable … Some analysts in Israel have warned that if Hamas were to be toppled in a sustained military operation, such groups could fill a power vacuum. Israel could conceivably find itself with an enemy even worse than Hamas, they say.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/israel-gaza-hamas-extremists-analysis

the problem as always is the bad Israeli "public relations" on the media and elsewhere.
News channels show injured kids from Gaza. almost non from Israel.

I saw that and thought about posting about it here. Guardian being totally asinine. What could be worse than Hamas at this point for either the citizens of Gaza or the citizens of Israel? If Hamas has moderated at all since taking power it's only because you have to run your country a little bit once you're in charge - a similar moderating affect would happen to any radical militant organization that took over. Certainly no one is worse now than Hamas was before they took power (and I can't imagine anyone would be worse once they take power). xp

it is true, and that is why this operation will probably be over before that will happen.
xxpost

the goal is not to break down Hamas completely.

It's concern trolling.

The Quds Brigades, the military wing of the Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine, announced the bombing of the occupied city of Tel Aviv with a Fajr-5 rocket for the first time in the history of the conflict between the Islamic Jihad military wing with the Zionist enemy.

The Al-Quds Brigades said that its rocket unit managed by the grace of Allah Almighty the bombing of the occupied city of Tel Aviv, which has heard a huge earthquake-like blast with the city sirens still reverberating after the holy jihad bombing.

Quds Brigades confirmed that it will teach the enemy a lesson in the art of jihad and fighting.

"which has heard a huge earthquake-like blast with the city sirens still reverberating after the holy jihad bombing."

the art of realism

News channels show injured kids from Gaza. almost non from Israel.

Plenty of people have been claiming the opposite about the media's emphasis over the past couple of days. Partisans see what they want to see. Mordy being one of those partisans, I know better than to argue with him.

Thanks, DL. I'm sure that assertion is borne out by my comments and tone on this thread and not at all based on your distaste at having to discuss the matzif with someone who doesn't already agree with you.

you mean "matzav"?

Yeah, sorry. I'm transliterating on the fly. Matzav.

Have I misunderstood you? Yes, I am basing it on your comments and tone on this thread. You, however, are making huge assumptions about what I think and what experience I have of Israel. I'm not a partisan for either side but I think this assault was misguided and this PM is good for nothing much apart from making enemies.

I believe Israel has an obligation to protect its citizens from attacks. I have condemned Israeli actions when I disagree with them on a number of occasions, and I believe when I have made arguments on this thread they have generally been seriously and sincerely argued. I have a personal stake in these issues as a member of the Jewish faith, but I do not believe that makes me a partisan (which negatively connotes a knee-jerk defender of an issue or party). I do not believe you have argued your case outside vague remarks ("I think this assault was misguided" would be more persuasive if you offered an alternative policy or response to the rocket attacks). I don't fault you, but I do think it's dispiriting that the left (in the West and in Israel) routinely fails to offer compelling alternatives to the Bibi administration. I think that instead of offering those alternatives it is easier to call me a partisan and refuse to engage with my comments. That's a shame.

Also, not directed at you, I think often many leftist critiques of Israel boil down to wanting to dismantle the Jewish State entirely (see the BDS movement). If resisting that political agenda makes me a partisan, so be it. (On a related note, Jay Michaelson wrote a good piece in the Forward earlier this year that speaks to some of this.)

OK, I take it back. I didn't reread the whole thread so I guess I caricatured your position. To clarify mine, my grandfather was Jewish and lived in Israel for several years - I've been to Israel to visit him and, later, as journalist. I have huge reservations about certain aspects of the anti-Israeli/anti-Zionist left (including the BDS movement). But I oppose the Gaza blockade, I oppose the West Bank settlements, I hate the excuses the Israeli government makes for killing civilians and I don't think the situation will ever improve while Likud is dominant. On a purely tactical level, I don't believe removing one man (at the same time as killing civilians) will do anything to halt rocket attacks and I don't see how Netanyahu and the IDF think it will.

http://journeytolife.aldinhrvat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/friends.jpg

Previous military excursions into Gaza, including Operation Cast Lead, have lead to decreased rocket attacks in the past. xp

If you follow the dynamics of fire you will learn two things. First, the vast majority of projectiles from Gaza result in no injuries or deaths. Second, most of them are fired during “flare ups” which are initiated, more often than not, by Israeli strikes which cause significant casualties. Hamas has in the past worked to clamp down on factions firing projectiles, like Islamic Jihad and others. But when Israeli strikes target these organizations and kill and injure Palestinians in Gaza, it ignites responses that lead to flare ups.

In short, what this means is that if it chose to modify its strategy, Israel could have likely dropped the number of projectiles it saw coming from Gaza significantly. Israel could coordinate with Hamas through third parties like the Egyptians; positive things like truces and prisoner exchanges have happened in the past. But the strategy Israel chose was not one of restraint or diplomacy....

Trading bodies for ballots is an equation Israeli leaders are happy to be engaged in, especially since all the ballots are Israeli and the bodies are almost always Palestinian.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/bodies-for-ballots.html

And say what you will about Likud, Bibi has a much better record on the issues you say are important to you than Kadima did. xxp

Which modifications of its strategy would have significantly reduced the "number of projectiles it saw coming from Gaza?"

so Israel should accept the missiles fired on citizens for years, cause it is more powerful than Hamas?

i wonder which other country in the world could tolerate the same situation.

"Israel could coordinate with Hamas through third parties like the Egyptians"

but thats happening

I think often many leftist critiques of Israel boil down to wanting to dismantle the Jewish State entirely

I would like to see both states dismantled and the whole rotten area given back to the hyraxes.

http://ferrebeekeeper.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/rock-hyrax-img_2112.jpg

i'm pretty critical of israeli policies but i've been equally distressed by the trend that article points out. i've got a FB friend who posts inflammatory shit in that vein pretty much every day. one of his latest posts was about a harvard dining room menu featuring 'israeli' dishes that apparently originated elsewhere in the middle east, which my friend dubbed 'israeli food colonization.'

many israelis originated elsewhere in the middle east

"is this anti-semitism?"