Israel to World: "Suck It."

yoffie otm

In Gaza itself, the emergence of radical militant organizations, largely beyond the control of the ruling Hamas, make the consequences of Israel’s operation highly unpredictable … Some analysts in Israel have warned that if Hamas were to be toppled in a sustained military operation, such groups could fill a power vacuum. Israel could conceivably find itself with an enemy even worse than Hamas, they say.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/14/israel-gaza-hamas-extremists-analysis

the problem as always is the bad Israeli "public relations" on the media and elsewhere.
News channels show injured kids from Gaza. almost non from Israel.

I saw that and thought about posting about it here. Guardian being totally asinine. What could be worse than Hamas at this point for either the citizens of Gaza or the citizens of Israel? If Hamas has moderated at all since taking power it's only because you have to run your country a little bit once you're in charge - a similar moderating affect would happen to any radical militant organization that took over. Certainly no one is worse now than Hamas was before they took power (and I can't imagine anyone would be worse once they take power). xp

it is true, and that is why this operation will probably be over before that will happen.
xxpost

the goal is not to break down Hamas completely.

It's concern trolling.

The Quds Brigades, the military wing of the Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine, announced the bombing of the occupied city of Tel Aviv with a Fajr-5 rocket for the first time in the history of the conflict between the Islamic Jihad military wing with the Zionist enemy.

The Al-Quds Brigades said that its rocket unit managed by the grace of Allah Almighty the bombing of the occupied city of Tel Aviv, which has heard a huge earthquake-like blast with the city sirens still reverberating after the holy jihad bombing.

Quds Brigades confirmed that it will teach the enemy a lesson in the art of jihad and fighting.

"which has heard a huge earthquake-like blast with the city sirens still reverberating after the holy jihad bombing."

the art of realism

News channels show injured kids from Gaza. almost non from Israel.

Plenty of people have been claiming the opposite about the media's emphasis over the past couple of days. Partisans see what they want to see. Mordy being one of those partisans, I know better than to argue with him.

Thanks, DL. I'm sure that assertion is borne out by my comments and tone on this thread and not at all based on your distaste at having to discuss the matzif with someone who doesn't already agree with you.

you mean "matzav"?

Yeah, sorry. I'm transliterating on the fly. Matzav.

Have I misunderstood you? Yes, I am basing it on your comments and tone on this thread. You, however, are making huge assumptions about what I think and what experience I have of Israel. I'm not a partisan for either side but I think this assault was misguided and this PM is good for nothing much apart from making enemies.

I believe Israel has an obligation to protect its citizens from attacks. I have condemned Israeli actions when I disagree with them on a number of occasions, and I believe when I have made arguments on this thread they have generally been seriously and sincerely argued. I have a personal stake in these issues as a member of the Jewish faith, but I do not believe that makes me a partisan (which negatively connotes a knee-jerk defender of an issue or party). I do not believe you have argued your case outside vague remarks ("I think this assault was misguided" would be more persuasive if you offered an alternative policy or response to the rocket attacks). I don't fault you, but I do think it's dispiriting that the left (in the West and in Israel) routinely fails to offer compelling alternatives to the Bibi administration. I think that instead of offering those alternatives it is easier to call me a partisan and refuse to engage with my comments. That's a shame.

Also, not directed at you, I think often many leftist critiques of Israel boil down to wanting to dismantle the Jewish State entirely (see the BDS movement). If resisting that political agenda makes me a partisan, so be it. (On a related note, Jay Michaelson wrote a good piece in the Forward earlier this year that speaks to some of this.)

OK, I take it back. I didn't reread the whole thread so I guess I caricatured your position. To clarify mine, my grandfather was Jewish and lived in Israel for several years - I've been to Israel to visit him and, later, as journalist. I have huge reservations about certain aspects of the anti-Israeli/anti-Zionist left (including the BDS movement). But I oppose the Gaza blockade, I oppose the West Bank settlements, I hate the excuses the Israeli government makes for killing civilians and I don't think the situation will ever improve while Likud is dominant. On a purely tactical level, I don't believe removing one man (at the same time as killing civilians) will do anything to halt rocket attacks and I don't see how Netanyahu and the IDF think it will.

http://journeytolife.aldinhrvat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/friends.jpg

Previous military excursions into Gaza, including Operation Cast Lead, have lead to decreased rocket attacks in the past. xp

If you follow the dynamics of fire you will learn two things. First, the vast majority of projectiles from Gaza result in no injuries or deaths. Second, most of them are fired during “flare ups” which are initiated, more often than not, by Israeli strikes which cause significant casualties. Hamas has in the past worked to clamp down on factions firing projectiles, like Islamic Jihad and others. But when Israeli strikes target these organizations and kill and injure Palestinians in Gaza, it ignites responses that lead to flare ups.

In short, what this means is that if it chose to modify its strategy, Israel could have likely dropped the number of projectiles it saw coming from Gaza significantly. Israel could coordinate with Hamas through third parties like the Egyptians; positive things like truces and prisoner exchanges have happened in the past. But the strategy Israel chose was not one of restraint or diplomacy....

Trading bodies for ballots is an equation Israeli leaders are happy to be engaged in, especially since all the ballots are Israeli and the bodies are almost always Palestinian.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/bodies-for-ballots.html

And say what you will about Likud, Bibi has a much better record on the issues you say are important to you than Kadima did. xxp

Which modifications of its strategy would have significantly reduced the "number of projectiles it saw coming from Gaza?"

so Israel should accept the missiles fired on citizens for years, cause it is more powerful than Hamas?

i wonder which other country in the world could tolerate the same situation.

"Israel could coordinate with Hamas through third parties like the Egyptians"

but thats happening

I think often many leftist critiques of Israel boil down to wanting to dismantle the Jewish State entirely

I would like to see both states dismantled and the whole rotten area given back to the hyraxes.

http://ferrebeekeeper.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/rock-hyrax-img_2112.jpg

i'm pretty critical of israeli policies but i've been equally distressed by the trend that article points out. i've got a FB friend who posts inflammatory shit in that vein pretty much every day. one of his latest posts was about a harvard dining room menu featuring 'israeli' dishes that apparently originated elsewhere in the middle east, which my friend dubbed 'israeli food colonization.'

many israelis originated elsewhere in the middle east

"is this anti-semitism?"

my friend's answer would be that it doesn't matter, because israel itself is an immoral 'colonialist enclave' imposed by european imperialists, etc etc. he says the same thing about the united states, though.

Your friend sounds fun.

And say what you will about Likud, Bibi has a much better record on the issues you say are important to you than Kadima did. xxp

― Mordy, Thursday, November 15, 2012 7:32 PM (35 minutes ago)

So who's on the Israeli left re Gaza now (if you can define it that way), since once centrist Kadima and once liberal Labor got more extreme re Gaza?

Meretz

also Hadash (communist party) and the Israeli-arabs

There are activist organizations and of course Haaretz publishes eg Amira Hass but I think leftist government position on Gaza has been pretty marginalized. There has been some easing of the blockade over the last couple years, but that has come from Likkud. The truth is that it's hard to predict what a legitimate leftist approach to Gaza would be at this point. The occupation is over, the embargo on particular items is very popular in Israel (and has been more or less circumvented by the Egyptian border anyway), and the constant rocket attacks are not popular in Israel.

If it weren't for Hamas firing rockets into Israel, Gaza would be in okay shape. Not a first world country by any means, but there has been economic development as of late:

In 2010, Israel relaxed its economic siege following an international outcry over its deadly raid of a Turkish-flagged humanitarian flotilla, allowing Gazans to legally import more consumer goods. Hamas took the opportunity to transform the tunnels, which were previously used for only basic consumer goods, into a government-sanctioned trade route for raw construction materials and cheap Egyptian petrol, fueling the economic boom of 2011 and 2012.

The rapid, subterranean inflow through the tunnels spurred a bustling construction sector that accounted for 27 percent of job growth in the Gaza Strip in 2011, private sector groups say.

The economy improved so much that, according to a September poll released by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, just 9 percent of Palestinians believe the blockade on Gaza is the most serious problem facing Palestinian society today.

While thousands of Gazans flocked to the territory’s short but stunning coastline this summer, when relative peace still reigned, the abrupt bang of hammers and whir of power-drills could be heard on almost every corner of the capital, Gaza City.

Sky-scraping apartment complexes, glitzy new shopping malls and extravagant hotel retreats were sprouting up amid the rubble, and unemployment had dropped to 28 percent from a record-high of 45 percent at the height of the blockade.

Devastated by the economic siege, during which 30 percent of Gaza’s businesses closed, the economy grew a staggering 20 percent in 2011, according to the International Monetary Fund.

Per capita gross domestic product also increased by 19 percent in 2011.

The economy improved so much that, according to a September poll released by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, just 9 percent of Palestinians believe the blockade on Gaza is the most serious problem facing Palestinian society today

the most severe problem according to that survey was poverty & unemployment! second was the continuation of israeli occupation. 9% is quite high given the competition.

"it's only one of the biggest problems for Palestine, no longer number 1!"

Apparently there are air raid sirens in Jerusalem. I don't understand what Hamas' end game here is. Try to provoke a war between Israel and Egypt?

If it weren't for Hamas firing rockets into Israel, Gaza would be in okay shape.

hmmm

Obviously it wouldn't be perfect but to build a country you need to go longer than three years without getting invaded. I bet if Hamas didn't fire a rocket for half a decade you'd see the blockade eased considerably. Not to mention all the money they spend on weapons that they should be spending on infrastructure.

Ismail Haniyeh, the Hamas prime minister, thanked Mr. Morsi in a televised speech on Thursday night “for the quick and brave decisions he made,” adding, “Today’s Egypt is unlike that of yesterday.”

I'm so sure Hamas' plan is to incite a war but it's not going to work. Egypt can't afford to go to war with Israel. Just a total fuckup on Hamas' part (shocking).

Are they...were they supposed to be building a country in a tiny bit of land with not a lot of resources and without opportunities for trade? Sorry, this isn't my specialty, history-wise.

Not only are they supposed to, but that's what the vast majority of Gaza residents want and are trying to do. They have the misfortune of living under a theocratic totalitarian regime.

If it weren't for Hamas firing rockets into Israel, Gaza would be in okay shape.

hmmm

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Friday, November 16, 2012 11:25 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, I think this is most decidedly not true, but I also think the constant rocketing belies any intention to create a viable state in the short term. Hamas wants to keep provoking Israel. Israel may also want to keep provoking Hamas. Each wants to deligitimize the other.

Israel has nothing to gain from provoking Hamas cf the long non-response to Hamas rocket provocations. Hamas has what to gain from provoking Israel. This is not an equivalency.

xxp Well, what people want is a function of their options - if it's that vs another Cast Lead, it's not a hard choice.

People want to live their lives and support their families. What do they gain from firing rockets at Sderot?

some interests groups in israel have things to gain from provoking hamas, some don't.

Gaza has a timebomb under their feet from overdrawing their aquifer, which is allowing Mediterranean brine to intrude (also, Israeli coastal settlements "uphill" and using the same coastal aquifer are taking their cut, reducing replenishment). If there's ever a diaspora from Gaza to Egyptian slums it will due be the water situation, which seems to kill more Palestinians in Gaza (through childhood disease) than the Israeli military.

Long term, they'll have to eliminate their irrigated agriculture and get the Sauds to finance some desalination plants. Now those will be rather strategic assets/targets.

some interests groups in israel have things to gain from provoking hamas, some don't.

i think the idea that bibi manufactured this conflict to get reelected is silly. he's very popular atm in israel, primarily bc he hasn't become embroiled in conflicts like lebanon invasion or cast lead under kadima.

I don't think it's for reelection. But I think plenty of people in power in Israel do not really want a Palestinian state -- at least not a realistic, viable one -- for reasons of resources, land and defense. So the long game is to continuously delegitimize the Palestinian cause. I also think that Hamas probably aims to deligitimize the very idea of the Israeli state. Their aims are long term -- they aren't stupid enough to think that the rockets themselves have a significant physical effect on Israel -- but they want to continue to push Israel's buttons, to keep the sides at odds, etc.