Israel to World: "Suck It."

http://journeytolife.aldinhrvat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/friends.jpg

Previous military excursions into Gaza, including Operation Cast Lead, have lead to decreased rocket attacks in the past. xp

If you follow the dynamics of fire you will learn two things. First, the vast majority of projectiles from Gaza result in no injuries or deaths. Second, most of them are fired during “flare ups” which are initiated, more often than not, by Israeli strikes which cause significant casualties. Hamas has in the past worked to clamp down on factions firing projectiles, like Islamic Jihad and others. But when Israeli strikes target these organizations and kill and injure Palestinians in Gaza, it ignites responses that lead to flare ups.

In short, what this means is that if it chose to modify its strategy, Israel could have likely dropped the number of projectiles it saw coming from Gaza significantly. Israel could coordinate with Hamas through third parties like the Egyptians; positive things like truces and prisoner exchanges have happened in the past. But the strategy Israel chose was not one of restraint or diplomacy....

Trading bodies for ballots is an equation Israeli leaders are happy to be engaged in, especially since all the ballots are Israeli and the bodies are almost always Palestinian.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/bodies-for-ballots.html

And say what you will about Likud, Bibi has a much better record on the issues you say are important to you than Kadima did. xxp

Which modifications of its strategy would have significantly reduced the "number of projectiles it saw coming from Gaza?"

so Israel should accept the missiles fired on citizens for years, cause it is more powerful than Hamas?

i wonder which other country in the world could tolerate the same situation.

"Israel could coordinate with Hamas through third parties like the Egyptians"

but thats happening

I think often many leftist critiques of Israel boil down to wanting to dismantle the Jewish State entirely

I would like to see both states dismantled and the whole rotten area given back to the hyraxes.

http://ferrebeekeeper.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/rock-hyrax-img_2112.jpg

i'm pretty critical of israeli policies but i've been equally distressed by the trend that article points out. i've got a FB friend who posts inflammatory shit in that vein pretty much every day. one of his latest posts was about a harvard dining room menu featuring 'israeli' dishes that apparently originated elsewhere in the middle east, which my friend dubbed 'israeli food colonization.'

many israelis originated elsewhere in the middle east

"is this anti-semitism?"

my friend's answer would be that it doesn't matter, because israel itself is an immoral 'colonialist enclave' imposed by european imperialists, etc etc. he says the same thing about the united states, though.

Your friend sounds fun.

And say what you will about Likud, Bibi has a much better record on the issues you say are important to you than Kadima did. xxp

― Mordy, Thursday, November 15, 2012 7:32 PM (35 minutes ago)

So who's on the Israeli left re Gaza now (if you can define it that way), since once centrist Kadima and once liberal Labor got more extreme re Gaza?

Meretz

also Hadash (communist party) and the Israeli-arabs

There are activist organizations and of course Haaretz publishes eg Amira Hass but I think leftist government position on Gaza has been pretty marginalized. There has been some easing of the blockade over the last couple years, but that has come from Likkud. The truth is that it's hard to predict what a legitimate leftist approach to Gaza would be at this point. The occupation is over, the embargo on particular items is very popular in Israel (and has been more or less circumvented by the Egyptian border anyway), and the constant rocket attacks are not popular in Israel.

If it weren't for Hamas firing rockets into Israel, Gaza would be in okay shape. Not a first world country by any means, but there has been economic development as of late:

In 2010, Israel relaxed its economic siege following an international outcry over its deadly raid of a Turkish-flagged humanitarian flotilla, allowing Gazans to legally import more consumer goods. Hamas took the opportunity to transform the tunnels, which were previously used for only basic consumer goods, into a government-sanctioned trade route for raw construction materials and cheap Egyptian petrol, fueling the economic boom of 2011 and 2012.

The rapid, subterranean inflow through the tunnels spurred a bustling construction sector that accounted for 27 percent of job growth in the Gaza Strip in 2011, private sector groups say.

The economy improved so much that, according to a September poll released by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, just 9 percent of Palestinians believe the blockade on Gaza is the most serious problem facing Palestinian society today.

While thousands of Gazans flocked to the territory’s short but stunning coastline this summer, when relative peace still reigned, the abrupt bang of hammers and whir of power-drills could be heard on almost every corner of the capital, Gaza City.

Sky-scraping apartment complexes, glitzy new shopping malls and extravagant hotel retreats were sprouting up amid the rubble, and unemployment had dropped to 28 percent from a record-high of 45 percent at the height of the blockade.

Devastated by the economic siege, during which 30 percent of Gaza’s businesses closed, the economy grew a staggering 20 percent in 2011, according to the International Monetary Fund.

Per capita gross domestic product also increased by 19 percent in 2011.

The economy improved so much that, according to a September poll released by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, just 9 percent of Palestinians believe the blockade on Gaza is the most serious problem facing Palestinian society today

the most severe problem according to that survey was poverty & unemployment! second was the continuation of israeli occupation. 9% is quite high given the competition.

"it's only one of the biggest problems for Palestine, no longer number 1!"

Apparently there are air raid sirens in Jerusalem. I don't understand what Hamas' end game here is. Try to provoke a war between Israel and Egypt?

If it weren't for Hamas firing rockets into Israel, Gaza would be in okay shape.

hmmm

Obviously it wouldn't be perfect but to build a country you need to go longer than three years without getting invaded. I bet if Hamas didn't fire a rocket for half a decade you'd see the blockade eased considerably. Not to mention all the money they spend on weapons that they should be spending on infrastructure.

Ismail Haniyeh, the Hamas prime minister, thanked Mr. Morsi in a televised speech on Thursday night “for the quick and brave decisions he made,” adding, “Today’s Egypt is unlike that of yesterday.”

I'm so sure Hamas' plan is to incite a war but it's not going to work. Egypt can't afford to go to war with Israel. Just a total fuckup on Hamas' part (shocking).

Are they...were they supposed to be building a country in a tiny bit of land with not a lot of resources and without opportunities for trade? Sorry, this isn't my specialty, history-wise.

Not only are they supposed to, but that's what the vast majority of Gaza residents want and are trying to do. They have the misfortune of living under a theocratic totalitarian regime.

If it weren't for Hamas firing rockets into Israel, Gaza would be in okay shape.

hmmm

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Friday, November 16, 2012 11:25 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, I think this is most decidedly not true, but I also think the constant rocketing belies any intention to create a viable state in the short term. Hamas wants to keep provoking Israel. Israel may also want to keep provoking Hamas. Each wants to deligitimize the other.

Israel has nothing to gain from provoking Hamas cf the long non-response to Hamas rocket provocations. Hamas has what to gain from provoking Israel. This is not an equivalency.

xxp Well, what people want is a function of their options - if it's that vs another Cast Lead, it's not a hard choice.

People want to live their lives and support their families. What do they gain from firing rockets at Sderot?

some interests groups in israel have things to gain from provoking hamas, some don't.

Gaza has a timebomb under their feet from overdrawing their aquifer, which is allowing Mediterranean brine to intrude (also, Israeli coastal settlements "uphill" and using the same coastal aquifer are taking their cut, reducing replenishment). If there's ever a diaspora from Gaza to Egyptian slums it will due be the water situation, which seems to kill more Palestinians in Gaza (through childhood disease) than the Israeli military.

Long term, they'll have to eliminate their irrigated agriculture and get the Sauds to finance some desalination plants. Now those will be rather strategic assets/targets.

some interests groups in israel have things to gain from provoking hamas, some don't.

i think the idea that bibi manufactured this conflict to get reelected is silly. he's very popular atm in israel, primarily bc he hasn't become embroiled in conflicts like lebanon invasion or cast lead under kadima.

I don't think it's for reelection. But I think plenty of people in power in Israel do not really want a Palestinian state -- at least not a realistic, viable one -- for reasons of resources, land and defense. So the long game is to continuously delegitimize the Palestinian cause. I also think that Hamas probably aims to deligitimize the very idea of the Israeli state. Their aims are long term -- they aren't stupid enough to think that the rockets themselves have a significant physical effect on Israel -- but they want to continue to push Israel's buttons, to keep the sides at odds, etc.

In other words, for all of the Israelis and Palestinians who support the two-state solution, I think the situation is under the control of people who want either no Israel or no Palestine.

Hurting, do you believe that Israel is bombing Gaza right now because they "do not really want a Palestinian state" or because they're responding to prolific rocket fire on southern Israel?

Obviously history is complex and events have many causes, contingency, etc, but one of those reasons seems indicated by the facts and history and other seems like a conspiracy theory.

phrasing the question that way takes the whole thing out of context. Yes, in the immediate sense they are responding to rocket fire, but I don't believe that bibi wants a palestinian state either. The larger thrust of Israeli policy has undermined the possibility of a palestinian state and actually provided fuel for Hamas.

I'm not sure I entirely disagree but I'm curious which Israel policies you feel have specifically undermined Gaza's ability to function as a state?

And how have they "provided fuel for Hamas?"

u trollin now dog

I think Abbas + Fatah have much more legitimate complaints about Israel, after all they have basically shut down violent resistance to Israel, they are building infrastructure in the West Bank, and have to deal with settlement expansion in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. By contrast, Israel has stayed out of Gaza. Now, the blockade is restrictive (though I think understandable, was eased after the flotilla incident, and would continue to be eased if a long period of peace occurred), but also has been almost entirely circumvented by the tunnels into Egypt. So I don't think it's 'trollin' to ask what the specific policies are that have 'provided fuel for Hamas,' outside the policy of being a Jewish State in the area previously known as Palestine.

Bibi's a pretty bloodthirsty dude, but imagine if his oh-so-different US presidential candidate had won.

I think the settlements in the West Bank are a legitimate Palestinian complaint. Israel shutting down violent resistance less so.

from a few days ago:

But Hamas has not been the principal one firing the rockets at Israel, at least not lately. Other, smaller militant groups in Gaza like Islamic Jihad and the popular resistance committees in the strip do much of the shooting, though the Al Qassam Brigade that Mr. Jabari headed until his death has taken credit for some attacks in recent weeks.

This may be a distinction without a difference to Israeli officials. They frequently argue that Hamas is the governing authority in Gaza, and therefore is de facto responsible for all rocket fire.

But Hamas has in fact been trying to keep rocket fire under control in the years since Israel's Operation Cast Lead in the territory in late 2008/early 2009. One of their most important men in keeping militancy under wraps? Mr. Jabari, who was powerful enough and respected enough to prevent a major outbreak of violence from Gaza that could have invited powerful reprisals.

idk I kind of think you're a sucker if you take that at face value.

xposts Josh, I don't think Mordy was referring to Israel, but to Abbas, when he wrote of "shut(ting) down violent resistance to Israel".

Regardless of whether Hamas has been firing them, they've been claiming them, no?

I mean "keeping militancy under wraps" = only 800-some-odd rockets fired into Israel so far this year.

Ah, OK.

also the rest of that article is kind of questionable. In the same breath we hear that hamas wants to stop the rockets, but also that Palestinians are 'understandably reluctant' to stop them (with a little not-excusing-it-but nb that the rockets are falling on areas that used to be palestinian -- thx for that), and then it actually turns out that trying too hard to stop the rockets would be a political problem. So....