Israel to World: "Suck It."

^^^ otm

I don't think they serve any purpose for Hamas, no. I think they're great for Israeli hardliners though as they continue to demonstrate that Hamas is not a willing peace partner and justify (to them) virtually any military response.

I don't see much desire for peace from either side's leaders, and most days I wish they would all wink out of existence. POIT! I understand that there are thousands and thousands of innocents and that this is an uncharitable thing to think, but to the extent that this is all one Abrahamic religion butting heads with another, my main feeling is disgust.

― WilliamC, Sunday, November 18, 2012 12:02 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"Much as I think Israel has aimed to maintain as much control as possible without a literal occupation"

true, but otherwise there will be suicide-bombers and more rockets toward Israel (been there done that)

xp They don't serve any purpose unless you think Hamas is part of some kind of larger regional long game of destabilizing Israel, which I think may be the case.

Why does IDF want to be militarily engaged with Gaza? Wouldn't they prefer to marshall all their resources in dealing with Iran? That's probably why Bibi took so long before responding to these rockets. Getting involved with Gaza does not do anything for the IDF or Israel. They'd much prefer no rockets and no military involvement.

Hamas' current campaign is either at the behest of Iran (I think unlikely) or to try and precipitate an event with Egypt (much more likely imo)- they thought this was a good time to force Egypt to reevaluate their treaty with Israel and rejoin the fight against Israel. It was a miscalculation though because Egypt really can't afford a war at the moment.

"demonstrate that Hamas is not a willing peace partner"

what about Hamas declaration to establish an Islamic state in the area that is now Israel?

Until someone gives a good non-security related reason for what Israel gains from delegitimizing Hamas, I have to imagine such accusations are just sneaky conspiracy bullshit. Israel removed all the settlements from Gaza and handed the territory over entirely. In response they've gotten unending rocket fire into Sderot. What is the Israeli secret plan here?

this thread is called "Israel to World:"Suck It"

so there's no need for good reasons when you know your opinion beforehand

also, Israel provides them electricity and water.
--nostormo
Such amazing generosity and yet amazingly so much of the population is malnourished...

thats not Israel's fault, except for not issuing work certificate to Gaza citizens to work inside Israel, in order to lower the risk of terror.

Wait, back up - did someone say Twinkies are being smuggled into Gaza by the thousands across the Egyptian border? Suddenly things make some sense. Palestinians in Gaza can horde Hostess goods while the company is liquidated, then auction them off on the international market once the price has skyrocketed, thus gaining a huge revenue stream which can in turn be used to barter for autonomy! And import rockets, but hey, you take the bad with the good.

Josh, it's no Wonder ™ that a lasting peace can't be achieved with you acting like a Ding Dong ™ in this very serious thread. Twinkies ™

Israel and Palestine need to be locked up together in the Sex House.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M4ozR8Edbs

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/19/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict.html?hp&_r=0

Israeli forces killed at least 11 people, including several children, in a single airstrike that destroyed a home here on Sunday, as Israel pressed its bombardment of the Gaza Strip for a fifth day, deploying warplanes and naval vessels to pummel the coastal enclave.

The airstrike, which the Israeli military said was meant to kill a Palestinian militant involved in the recent rocket attacks, was the deadliest operation to date and would no doubt weigh on negotiations for a possible cease-fire. Among the dead were five women and four small children, The Associated Press reported, citing a Palestinian health official.

don't know if the identities of the dead have been verified, but yikes

targeting media centers kind of a bad look

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/17/gershon-baskin_n_2152231.html

thats not Israel's fault
--nostormo

the main fault is that they don't have a normal and strong leader who wants peace and development. and Abu Mazen ,sadly, don't have control over Gaza.
Hammas does and they are responsible (irresponsible).

it's more or less the same problem Syria or Iran have now with their leaders, but worse. (at least Israel is not "responsible" for those problems.)

on the other hand, i might had different opinions if i lived in quiet SF. i guess it's easier there to see things in black and white.

according to a piece in haaretz jhabari was one such leader: he enforced quietude, ensured gilad shalit's safety and arranged his return in return for infrastructure and medical treatment for palastinians.

hmm seem to remember something else being exchanged

a true saint!

only forgetting few little points: responsible for sending suicide bombers to Israel+ attacks on buses killing citizens (short memory?), for kidnapping Shalit (of course he ensured his safety - he knew he would get much more in negotiation), made Hammas even more extreme than they were..

and he sometimes knew how to use the media to it's own interests.

again, it's easier to forget the details when you only read about the conflict only once in awhile.

u can read it here if ur registered

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-killed-its-subcontractor-in-gaza.premium-1.477886

it's by the editor-in-chief aluf benn

on the other hand, i might had different opinions if i lived in quiet SF. i guess it's easier there to see things in black and white.
--nostormo

Not saying that Hamas or whomever would be capable of actually running things in Gaza without Israeli "interference" but pretending they're the "whole problem" is just nonsense.

on "hand[ing] the territory over entirely", per mordy

http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/gaza_status
http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/rafah_crossing

various incursions and strikes not detailed

trying to be think out of the box doesn't make an opinion necessary right.
the fact is that the south of Israel went under more than 1000 missiles attacks on the last months, and jhabbari was in charge.
or maybe Aluf Benn thinks that was also a part of the pre-election conspiracy plan?

xxxpost

eah it's only us SFers who think that no one else.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Sunday, Novembe

you know what i meant.

"pretending they're the "whole problem" is just nonsense."

didn't say that, but at least you don't think Israel is the "whole problem" do you?
certainly it looks that way.

"but at least you don't think Israel is the "whole problem" do you?"

Yeah pretty much I do. I can acknowledge that Israel has a stated reason (you parroted it above) to exert the control they do over Gaza's economic destiny, but they are basically largely responsible for Gaza's complete inability to build a constructive economy (or even reconstruct something resembling their former economy.)

Cue Mordy b-b-but Egypt! and they have tunnels! and besides that Red Cross person said there was no humanitarian crisis, etc.

Hammas does and they are responsible (irresponsible).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_n4g9uLTTQUo/S7uBdYSbNVI/AAAAAAAAA1Q/mvvaRMI1kvg/s1600/confetti+hummus.jpg

this seems to fit w mordy line of thought http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?ID=292466&R=R1&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

What a psycho.

I don't think that's fair to Mordy

that writer's such a war-fan he can't resist the sports metaphors. POS

I'm trying to take a breather from posting on this thread (I don't think it's particularly great for my mental health to talk about Israel too much), but I think ideally the IDF will not send ground troops into Gaza at all (Haaretz claims there's a 50% chance they won't go in), and that if they do send troops in, I will be praying that civilian casualties are minimized. I think that defending Israel's right to protect its citizens is important, but that doesn't put me on the same page as Gilad Sharon. For one, I think an Egyptian brokered cease fire will be more effective in the long run than a full scale invasion (though it has been noted that cease fires are often used by Hamas to buy time to restock their arsenals). Secondly, though, I am not comfortable enough with war and death to cheer this kind of thing at all. I think all wars are tragic, but I don't think all wars are avoidable.

stratfor thinks a ground invasion is likely:

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/pause-negotiations-israeli-hamas-conflict?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=official&utm_campaign=link

...and the whole thing hinges on hamas' stockpile of longish-range rockets

though friedman's analysis of US politics over the past few years leads me doubt plenty. but people have their blind spots i guess.

i did not said mordy = gilad, just saying that the line of thought he expressed in this thread was very similar to the one gilad expressed in the article.

esp. this: "it is not under Israeli siege – it shares a border with Egypt." or "That’s what’s called “deterrence” – if you shoot at me, I’ll shoot at you. There is no justification for the State of Gaza being able to shoot at our towns with impunity."

however, his conclusions are not similar to mordys: "A Tarzan-like cry that lets the entire jungle know in no uncertain terms just who won, and just who was defeated." or "The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences."

diff conclusions, but similar "reading" of the situation. his conclusions are pathetic, psycho-like, but what i consider v. dangerous is this "line of thought" im referring to. i tend to think a lot of israelis follow this line of reasoning (much because of the "apartheid poll"). a lot of israelis (like the residents of gaza who arent innocents cause they elected hamas and MUST LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES...) arent innocents then.

kind of lol, kind of o_0, kind of sad:

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/542832_10151167341308003_1128272432_n.jpg

I believe that civilians in Gaza are innocents and I believe that the IDF takes numerous precautions to preserve civilian life including calling ahead to buildings and dropping leaflets warning civilians to clear target areas. No other country takes such precautions during war because they increase the likelihood that the legitimate military targets will also move before the strike. I find the suggestion that I believe Gazan civilians deserve to be killed personally offensive, and indicative of a superficial ethics. If you can't make your case without misrepresenting me I think you may need to reconsider the case. xp

ha ok that last post makes that officially funny
xpost

I believe that civilians in Gaza are innocents and I believe that the IDF takes numerous precautions to preserve civilian life including calling ahead to buildings and dropping leaflets warning civilians to clear target areas.

This is kind of belied by officials saying publicly that we need to punish Gaza, bomb it back to the stone age, etc. Also, official policy and what the people with guns in their hands (or soldiers at their command) actually do are not always the same thing.

I mean, I'm not saying they try to maximize civillian deaths, or that they don't take some measures to reduce them, but the whole "nicest military in the world" schtick is starting to run a little thin

Yeah it's bullshit.

Sharon Udasin reports on on environment, energy, scientific innovation and Negev issues. New Jersey born and bred, Sharon moved to Israel in September 2010, after spending two years as a staff writer at The New York Jewish Week in Manhattan. Prior to her position there, she earned a Master's degree in 2008 from the Graduate School of Journalism at Columbia University, which directly followed her four years as an undergraduate at the University of Pennsylvania.

But of course.