mountaineering

its like i was talking to a friend who does back country skiingand i asked him how he felt abt the risk of death involved in it, and he was like oh its not that dangerous and besides we all wear avalanche beacons

avalanche risk is actually a perfect example of a perceived risk that has been studied, and that has data to support it. backcountry skiing is increasingly popular, and loads of people are getting into it without any knowledge or know-how when it comes to risk management (which is pretty much entirely avalanche related). and people are dying.

bros wear avalanche beacons like talismans, and assume that simply having one will keep them safe. which is garbage, of course, since an avalanche beacon does nothing to keep you from getting caught in a slide in the first place, nor does it really do much to get you out of one. someone still has to do all the shoveling, and all that's going to do is turn up your lifeless, mangled body.

from Bruce Tremper, an actual avalanche expert:

To give you an example, let's make the following assumptions:
* You travel in avalanche terrain 100 days per year
* You cross 10 avalanche slopes per day
* The snow is stable enough to cross on 95 percent of the slopes
* For every avalanche you accidentally trigger, you get caught every third time, and killed every tenth time

(he then includes an actuarial table i won't completely recreate, but:)

% decisions correct    avys triggered    number of times killed/yr    expected lifetime
          99.99                        0.1                            0.01                            100yrs
          99.9                          1                               0.1                                10yrs
           ...          
          95*                            50                              5                                  2mos

*People with no avalanche skills and assuming snow is stable on 95 percent of the slopes

boo formatting :(

but that does not mean that doing it safely and conscientiously dramatically increases your risk of dying, tomorrow, in any appreciable way. it could! but for many, it doesn't.

― well if it isn't old 11 cameras simon (gbx), Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:47 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

depends on if youe climbing tomorrow

basically (and to echo aimless): some climbers are reckless, some are not. but it's a little weird to suggest that the very act of going climbing means that you are, de facto, delusional about how safe what you're doing is. otherwise you could say that anyone that incurred risk of any kind (driving, again) is totally delusional. and you'd be logically right, and practically wrong, boring, and insufferable.

ha and how would you describe posting huge blocks of text abt how you know how to clamp into a thing, and fwiw as ive said itt its not just the fact that climbers climb that make me think theyre delusional and/or somewhat dishonest in their arguments abt this topic but they way they talk abt it, i mean i certainly hope people who climb way up on rocks know how to use all their doohickies

i mean instead of explaining what a master of safety you are why dont you tell us abt a time you bit off more than you could chew climbing and were afraid for your life

Are you having a bad day or did you just run out of kittens to torture?

excellent contribution laurel

what instigated lagoon calling people insane for going rock climbing?

omg i am being strawmanned so hard itt

cant believe lagoon killed gbx by intentionally knocking him off a sheer rockface :(

he had to learn somehow

apologies lag∞n I was confused by your crayon-face, burlap skin, and flannel shirt

a mountaineer fell on his house, killed his perlt bunny

when will u all SEE

*pet

dammit

aforementioned bunny, in happier days, as we would all like to remember it:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4f/Pat_the_Bunny_image.jpg/200px-Pat_the_Bunny_image.jpg

(bites knuckle and turns away)

no you dont understand pearl t bunny is the name of my rabbit

;_;

rip perlt

my little theory about climbing, especially in a gym, becoming a more popular sport these days is that people are, consciously or unconsciously, sick of living in a mainstream culture of fear and the associated ultra-safe lifestyle. like what's the point, etc. climbing gyms are pretty safe places as far as climbing goes, so i'm not saying this is about rebellion and throwing caution to the wind, but it's about something about control and risk and understanding what safety really is as opposed to safety being not doing anything risky outside of the "normal" risky "everyday" stuff like driving a car or believing that the current consumer capitalism is the neverending future.

― obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Wednesday, November 21, 2012 6:03 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is interesting, and sort of tragic in that its like one trys to get some breath of fresh air from contemporary programed materialistic culture and whats available, a leisure activity w/gyms gear media etc, you cant escape

rip hobbies nobody makes magazines for

managed risk, trusting your ability to manage risk, and your comfort in trusting your ability

I don't know, I just saw a nice picture of some people resting on a platform they'd secured halfway up a sheer rock wall, with it securely fastened and themselves tethered several ways, all by the book.

there is inherent risk in all things, but the inherent risk in rock climbing, and to an extent climbing in a more controlled environment, is in believing you won't be comfortable and cut corners.

being good about securing things and doing rock climbing *properly*, you're probably risking less than talking on your phone and driving while screwing with the radio. but it ~feels~ risky

I think it all comes down to gbx's table telling me I could act pretty dumb and still not die 19/20, or more likely, 9/10 times

*sigh*

well, if you are driving at 20 mph talking on your phone and fiddling with the radio, you're not in any mortal danger. transpose that same behavior to 70 mph surrounded by a pack of cars and you're def living dangerously. a grasp of physics is urgent and key to sussing out actual physical risk.

well, if you are driving at 20 mph talking on your phone and fiddling with the radio, you're not in any mortal danger.

lol sure if you're in the middle of a mall parking lot with no other drivers

btw g∞ny it's spelled "tries" and not "trys"

we are discounting the danger from meteorites and flash floods, of course.

sterling contributions itt mh

do u climb? I don't

I have made a grave commenting error.

* backs away, slowly *

(falls off cliff)

will no one think about the bunny

this is interesting, and sort of tragic in that its like one trys to get some breath of fresh air from contemporary programed materialistic culture and whats available, a leisure activity w/gyms gear media etc, you cant escape

oh this makes things seem so sad and pointless! oh let us simply toil away in our shallow urban lives!
- climbing gyms are a business, sure, but they're also pretty niche and the people who run them are usually (i can't adhere completely to a generalization) super committed to what they're about. the basics of climbing aren't devastatingly $$ nor is there overt pressure to get "the best" gear - yet you do need money to buy basic stuff ($200 or so). but like i'm in the gym and i see a group of high school kids from the neighbourhood and they've mostly prob never come to the gym other than on a school trip, but they're so into it i wish there was a way to have them be there every week (this was me in high school - a couple of climbs but didn't know what i could do to go further, esp re $), and it's fucked up to me that they can't. at the same time i know this gym will cut them a good deal somehow if they're really into it. and i don't know, it's also like with playing music - you get what you can afford or what people give you and you can do good things with that, e.g., you don't need boutique gear to be awesome. but anyway, also one of the points of the gym is to get/stay fit so that you can climb outside! outside!
- media, i mean, i know gyms usually have websites but they're pretty low on the advertising spectrum...
- what this also makes me think about is the differentiation between what is leisure and what is "work"/non-leisure these days. a lot of people dislike their "work" and want something more, want more meaning or responsibility, which they find in their "leisure" activities. a lot of work is bullshit, fuck work! climb! be alive! overcome! new world order!

i think getting exercise and being outdoors is great, but theres certainly nothing more emblematic of our current era than trying to find meaning in entertainment/leisure activities,i mean theres a reason no one ever thought of climbing a mountain until fairly recently

on a wider scale imho the more you try to define yourself in contrast to something be it our current societal mores or w/e the more beholden you are to it - so i think rock climbing is a fine and wholesome if somewhat dangerous activity, but i have a hard time believing it the solution to the human condition

What if you define yourself and it just happens to not be in alignment with mainstream social mores, not a fight, just a way of being? Wait is this suddenly an argument about hipsterism? ugh! Can anyone do anything anymore.

Hell I live in a country where people are constantly on about "let's not define ourselves as what we're not! eg the US!" - to which my response has always been I'm just doing some things i feel like doing and possibly they are influenced by media big and small! Culture! It's all around us! and the US has many awesome things I love the US too.

People have been climbing mountains for hundreds of years! Pilgrimages for one!

i sincerely hope people can just be themselves and be happy and get along and not have to worry so much abt how they fit in or w/e, im just somewhat suspicious of oppositional stances thatre all the world is so fd up im gonna go do this other thing when that other thing is still taking place on the world, its just kind of interesting how peoples solutions to the problems of the times also tend to be v of the times themselves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountaineering#History

everything is of the times; no escape

Moses was the original mountaineer

ha yeah i mean people did set foot on mountains in the past but the origins of mountaineering as a thing thing can be dated to around the time of the industrial revolution

I don't believe I linked it here earlier, but this article from 2007 is worth reading. What it's like to be in Everest Base Camp for a month: http://www.outsideonline.com/adventure-travel/asia/nepal/mount-everest/High-Times.html

HIGH TIMES
You were told that Everest base camp is an insult to the true spirit of mountaineering. (Harrumph.) But why weren't you told about the excellent bars, the butter people, and that friendly Playboy bunny from Poland? The author spends a month at the world's most exclusive party town.

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/dvd/fox/soundofmusic/SOM1_L.jpg

command-f butter people

What are the chances of dying while climbing Everest? I've read everything from 1/60 to 1/10, and you could argue that it's not the best place to look for experienced risk-aware level-headed climbers; either way they don't sound like great odds compared to any kind of driving.

butter people can only exist at a certain altitude cos they start melting once they descend below the tree line

http://durbutter.com/durbutter.gif

Amazing panoramic gigapixel photo of Everest, Lhotse, base camp, and the Khumbu Icefall: http://www.glacierworks.org/the-glaciers/pumori-spring-2012/

HFS, I just zoomed in on that photo and saw just how small base camp and the climbers are in comparison to the mtn

what is this? a base camp for ants?

http://theadventureblog.blogspot.com/2012/12/first-8000-meter-summiteer-maurice.html

Sad news from France today, where we've received word that Maurice Herzog has passed away at the ripe old age of 93. If his name is familiar, it is because he was the first man, along with climbing partner Louis Lachenal, to successfully summit an 8000 meter peak.

Herzog and Lachenal climbed their way into the history books back on June 3, 1950 when they made the first successful attempt up Annapurna, the tenth highest peak in the world at 8091 meters (26,545 ft). Even more remarkable, considering the time, they actually made the ascent without the use of supplemental oxygen. The climb was not an easy one by any stretch of the imagination however, as the summit team, along with two companions, spend a night camped out in a crevasse on the descent. They had one sleeping bag between the four men and as a result, they suffered severe frostbite. Herzog himself had lost his gloves on the way to the summit and ended up having all of his toes and several fingers amputated in the field.

Ironically, Annapurna was the first of the 8000 meter peaks to be summited, but is now considered to be amongst the most challenging of those 14 mountains to climb. It wouldn't be successfully conquered again until 1970.

After his harrowing climb, Herzog published a book about the adventure entitled Annapurna: The First Conquest of an 8000-Meter Peak, which has gone on to be one of the best selling mountaineering books of all time. The book has been translated into 40 languages and has sold over 12 million copes across the globe, inspiring generations of mountaineers that followed. He also served as the Commissioner of Youth and Sport in France and was the mayor of Chamonix from 1968-1977.

(his book is one of my all-time faves)