Is this anti-semitism?

I am not shy about saying that I think a preponderance of leftist anti-zionism is a smokescreen for PC anti-semitism. I don't go around calling it out in discussions about Israel bc I think I can make much stronger points and arguments just discussing anti-zionist critiques on their own ground. But I rarely enter a conversation about anti-zionism where I do not hear numerous comments, remarks and provocations that seem rooted in anti-semitism, not in "legitimate" critiques of Israel.

3) also doing it on Holocaust rememberance day

I think this is kind of a tricky point. There's a common argument you hear that the holocaust doesn't somehow "excuse" wrongs committed by Israel, and I say well of course it doesn't. But conversely, Israel's wrongs should not be used as an excuse to minimize the holocaust, which I think is what happens every time someone thinks they are being clever by connecting the holocaust and any wrongs committed by Israel.

I don't want the abolition of Israel fwiw

xp We don't need telling that there's anti-semitism on the left and that some critics of current Israeli policy are anti-semitic. I've seen enough loathsome star-of-david=swastika banners on demonstrations.

Agreed that the timing was shitty and needlessly provocative. This isn't something anyone needs to see on Holocaust Memorial Day.

Obviously linking any criticism of Israel w/ the Holocaust (especially the rhetorical tropes that Jews are the new Nazis, or that Israel has ironically become the Nazis that once persecuted them) is anti-semitism. There's no reason to evoke the Holocaust when critiquing Israel except to be hurtful to Jews. Especially since it is a terrible historical parallel - there has been no genocide of the Palestinians and in fact Israel delivers aid to Gaza and the Palestinian communities have boomed over the last 80 years. Which is not to say that there is never nothing to criticize about Israeli "treatment" of Palestinians, but that calling it a genocide is an anti-semitic trope imho.

wouldn't blood be all slippery and a poor excuse for mortar? not sure this makes any sense

pertinent > http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-British-Left-Zionism-History/dp/0719088135

I think a lot of Palestinians would disagree about the amazing amount of aid certain communities are getting.

Israel sends a tremendous amount of aid to Gaza. Whether it is sufficient, or makes up for the embargo, etc is worth a discussion but doesn't seem relevant to this thread.

nakh and djp otm itt

My only point was that there is clearly no policy of extermination or genocide against the Palestinians by Israel, whatever their other crimes may be. Using those terms then is - uh - problematic to say the least.

every time this happens they say they would do the same for putin or whatever, which might be true but is always oblivious to the overdetermination, that where israel is concerned there is always a litany of old antisemitic tropes produced by the same 'neutral' imagery

― Why they hide the bodice under décolletage? (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Monday, January 28, 2013 3:00 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this seems fairly clear cut to me.

I just think your framing of it as "not that bad, but yes there are some problems" is a bit disingenuous. Not at all saying its anything approaching the holocaust, mind.

If you want to discuss particular problems, I encourage you to post to the rolling middle east thread where I'd love to discuss your critiques with you. Israel is not committing genocide against the Palestinians. To say otherwise is anti-semitic. That's my only point.

I'm not sure I buy that though. Ignorant criticism does not necessarily equal some kind of racial prejudice.

Do you really believe ppl call Gaza a concentration camp and accuse Israel of committing genocide because they're just ignorant about the actual facts?

Yes, protesters love hyperbole. Look at basically every protest ever.

If you want to find anti semitism in that cartoon you can, and if you're predisposed to that sort of mentality of course you can find it in any and every argument that, shall we say, lacks nuance.

every time this happens they say they would do the same for putin or whatever, which might be true but is always oblivious to the overdetermination, that where israel is concerned there is always a litany of old antisemitic tropes produced by the same 'neutral' imagery

― Why they hide the bodice under décolletage? (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Monday, January 28, 2013 3:00 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this seems fairly clear cut to me.

― max, Monday, 28 January 2013

yeah i accept this. and there is in this the bravado of the stand-up comedian breaking taboos, being shocking to reveal truth, which usually turns out to be hubris

There's also the abiding shitness of political cartoonists when they're so outraged or horrified that they can't be witty or original and fall back on the same old tropes: blood-soaked hands, piles of skulls, the Grim Reaper, etc. And some of those tropes are undoubtedly more problematic when applied to Israel but whether they're actually anti-semitic is in the eye of the beholder and, as the Haaretz writer, points out, Scarfe omits anything with obvious anti-semitic connotations.

^^

Political cartoons are pretty stupid. I always think of Brandt from The Day Today.

i mean i think (hope?) that scarfe is not "actually" anti-semitic but cartoonists of all people should be aware of the power & resonance of certain symbols & imagery

like blood and towering over people as if to devour them

Cartoonists should be careful, but I just don't see anything in this outside of Scarfe's regular style. I

Yes, protesters love hyperbole. Look at basically every protest ever.

This is why I try not to introduce anti-Semitism into discussions with anti-Zionists. There is too much plausible deniability. I don't know that the cartoonist hates Jews in his heart. I know that he doesn't like Jews very much. No one who likes Jews would criticize Israeli policy w/ a cartoon about a Jew using Arab blood as mortar in a wall. They'd find a way to criticize it that couldn't be "misinterpreted" as anti-Semitic. And that's really at the heart of it - he's either evil or thoughtless, and at least one Jew thought those two things were the same.

I guess I should start thinking of Jews as the same as Israel to make sure I appreciate the sensitivity.

u imply antisemitism on the reg xp

I "imply." Ironic!

Gukbe, about ~40% of the world Jewish population lives in Israel. Maybe you didn't realize that?

I do realise that, but...uh...so?

You wrote: "I guess I should start thinking of Jews as the same as Israel to make sure I appreciate the sensitivity."

When you're criticizing the Jewish State where almost half the world Jewish population lives it's kinda unavoidable that you're talking about Jews?

I'm not comfortable tying a group of people inextricably to a nation. Certainly not comfortable tying a group of people to Bibi.

Except a State is different than a People.

I'd say if you want to avoid anti-Semitism, when you criticize Israel avoid hyperbole that seems cribbed from anti-Semitic cartoons in the 40s? You don't need to make a big deal about how Israel does not represent all Jews or how criticizing the State is not criticizing Jews, etc. Just stay away from the anti-Semitic tropes when talking about Israel.

Maybe, but again, we disagree on the level of antisemitism going on in that cartoon.

But yes I would avoid a Gargamel type figure.

I wonder what is at stake for you in arguing that the cartoon is not antisemitic. Are you afraid that if we agree that building walls with Arab blood is an antisemitic image that legitimate criticisms of Israel will be off the table?

"I can't suggest that Bibi is building a wall out of Arab blood? What's next? I can't criticize Israel's policies of rejecting movement visas from Gaza to the West Bank? I can't criticize the embargo?"

What's at stake is a dude drew Bibi with a hot crazy oversized nose but its still antisemetic.

With a not*

hahahaha what a typo

So people hurl around accusations that he has an innate hatred of a group of people.

In the very least, the creator of this image is responsible for being aware of how his imagery conforms to historically racist tropes. So, too are the editors.

DJP pointed to the racist bottle-opener thread, and I think that's a solid comparison.

We can argue about intent, but c'mon, look at it!

"People hurl around accusations"

Which is a bigger problem in the world: Anti-semitism, or false accusations of anti-semitism?

I think that is a false dichotomy

Ridiculous question. One is worse, both are bad. The existence of anti-semitism doesn't give you license to make accusations of anti-semitism and dismiss any alternative interpretation.

I think that if someone says that they find something anti-semitic you can take them at their word and not assume it's a conspiracy to label critics of Israel as anti-semites in order to shout down their criticism.

I wouldn't mind so much if you hadn't linked to a blog which compared it to a Goebbels poster which it looks nothing like. If you compare a cartoonist with no record of anti-semitism (afaik) to one of Goebbels' pet hatemongers then some people are going to disagree.