Democratic (Party) Direction

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Does that mean you think I'm wrong?

well yes, but what it really means is i think you can go have your bogus white house talking points debunked on about 75,000 liberal blogs, and it would be pointless to regurgitate the argument here. or, conversely, you can go have them applauded on about 75,000 rightwing blogs.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 27 January 2006 03:56 (eighteen years ago) link

*eyes doing something even weirder than rolling*

truck-patch pixel farmer (my crop froze in the field) (Rock Hardy), Friday, 27 January 2006 03:57 (eighteen years ago) link

uh, xpost

truck-patch pixel farmer (my crop froze in the field) (Rock Hardy), Friday, 27 January 2006 03:58 (eighteen years ago) link

According to the poll reported in today's NY Times, whether or not Americans approve of federal wiretaps depends on how the question is worded. These were the two ways that the question was worded:

1) "After 9/11, President Bush authorized government wiretaps on some phone calls in the U.S. without getting court warrants. Do you approve or disapprove of this?"

2) "After 9/11, President Bush authorized government wiretaps on some phone calls in the U.S. without getting court warrants, saying this was necessary to reduce the threat of terrorism. Do you approve or disapprove of this?"

To question #1, 46% approve and 50% disapprove. To question #2, 53% approve and 46% disapprove. So it sounds like as long as Bush continues to harp on the terrorism angle, public opinion is likely to remain on his side - which makes impeachment seem rather unlikely.

o. nate (onate), Friday, 27 January 2006 15:43 (eighteen years ago) link

Here's my take on the NSA issue:

Yes, Democrats should make an issue, but they MUST MUST MUST harp on the potential for ABUSE and not just the illegality.

Dems have to make an issue out of it in order to be a credible opposition party (and besides, it's the right thing to do), but also should not expect it to be an election-winning issue and should in no way make it the focus of any campaign.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Friday, 27 January 2006 15:46 (eighteen years ago) link

Michael Kinsley has an amusing column today on the Democratic art of self-flagellation:

http://www.slate.com/id/2134929/

Liberals are not nearly so rare and so culturally isolated as the official map would suggest. This is little comfort to Democrats when it comes to the math of winning elections. But it does suggest that endless self-flagellation about their values and beliefs may not be the best strategy for turning things around.

This is not an argument for complacency. Obviously the party that has lost the White House, both houses of Congress, and now the courts needs some new ideas and new energy. But it seems undeniably true to me — though many deny it — that the Republicans simply play the game better. You're not supposed to say that. At Pundit School they teach you: Always go for the deeper explanation, not the shallower one. Never suggest that people (let alone "the" people) can be duped.

o. nate (onate), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Democrats needin' some green baseball caps.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:51 (eighteen years ago) link

bit here about the DLC, and the problems sticking with outmoded thinking

First, it failed the party. People are more reluctant to identify themselves as liberals or propgressives than they wre in 1988 and one of the reasons is that people like Al From and his boys helped the Republicans degrade the label to such an extent that people don't want to be associated with it. It is one thing to criticize your brothers; it's another to sully the family name. They continue to do this by talking about purging Michael Moore and Move-On and generally showing such a lack of respect for the grassroots that you wonder why they don't just call us all filthy rabble and tell us to eat cake. The lesson here is to never employ GOP rhetoric about the Democratic Party, ever. This is one thing that simply has got to stop.

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 2 February 2006 18:32 (eighteen years ago) link

He's wrong, I think. No, Clinton's third way didn't succeed much. But there was great success in his post-94 fourth way - making rhetorical overtures to the other side while pushing your own policies under the radar. Bush only further illustrates the success of that approach, because he's adopted it to a great extent (though it became much easier to employ when he got to talk about things other than tax cuts and social security reform), as demonstrated particularly well by the SOTU. I don't think you throw out the playbook because the other side understands its lessons better than yours does. The idea that we came close last time so next time we'll have a decent shot to go over the top is the same idea we went with in 2004.

I agree with don't-distance-yourself-from-the-party. But look at his examples - neither Moore nor MoveOn is actually part of the party. I'm ok with distancing yourself from allies who you think don't understand the playbook and insist on running the wrong plays. That's exactly what the left blogosphere does to Lieberman, et al all the time, and it's hypocritical to suggest otherwise. And maybe we even benefit from this division, the way the GOP does from its Wall Street and fundy division at the lower levels. But at some point, to come up with a national message, one side is probably going to have to give on which playbook is right, because unity on the wrong strategy may be preferable to division - Kerry and Gore were arguably easy to paint as wafflers because they spent a lot of time trying to avoid picking sides, Hillary will probably be easy to paint in the same light because she appears to be trying to pick both sides simultaneously, and Warner or some similarly fresh equivalent is arguably the best choice in 08 because they can be another Clintonian rorschach test. But what I've been trying to do on this thread, and I think a lot of people in the party are trying to do, is to come up with a third way that unites the two playbooks.

As to the DLC boogeyman, I'm perfectly willing to believe that Al From is some evil dude, but all I really see in support of that contention is the certainty of the speaker, not much substantive evidence.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 2 February 2006 19:04 (eighteen years ago) link

neither Moore nor MoveOn is actually part of the party

But most of the people they engage are. Exactly what were the fruits of Clinton's "fourth way" (first I've heard of it)?

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 2 February 2006 19:35 (eighteen years ago) link

(I made it up) I'm not going to argue the left-realness of Clinton's two terms any more, as I've accepted that welfare reform cancels out and then some min-wage increases, EITC adjustments, the demi-initiative banquet, etc., for lots of people, but suffice it to say that he got a second term, and probably could have got a third.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 2 February 2006 19:39 (eighteen years ago) link

I think it's kind of silly to argue about how far left Clinton was or wasn't. The point about welfare reform is that it was good policy-making - not whether it lined up with some liberal or conservative scorecard.

o. nate (onate), Thursday, 2 February 2006 19:52 (eighteen years ago) link

On a similar note, Chris Mooney(the guy who wrote "The Republic War on Science") writes about scientists doing this, i.e. learning that communicate the importance of their work to a public at large that's not as technically saavy. The experts he cites come up with very similar suggestions to what guys like Lakoff have talked about:
Facts alone, note Aubrun and Grady, aren’t enough to educate people; instead, facts must be carefully packaged (or “framed”) in the context of narratives or explanations if they’re to enhance knowledge. Consider the technically complex issue of climate change, where attacks on science have been rampant and the public has been deeply confused. Grady and Aubrun have found that as an explanation, the “greenhouse effect” simply confuses people. Few Americans have any firsthand experience of greenhouses, and they don’t grasp the proposed analogy between carbon dioxide (a gas) and glass walls. So instead, Grady and Aubrun suggest talking about a “carbon dioxide blanket” encircling the earth—an explanation that instantly helps people understand why a heating effect is taking place. Sure, it’s a metaphor and shouldn’t be taken literally. But then, so was the concept of an ozone “hole”—a phrasing that instantly allowed the public to understand the issue of ozone depletion and that helped to galvanize political action.

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 3 February 2006 23:19 (eighteen years ago) link

"learning to", rather

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 3 February 2006 23:21 (eighteen years ago) link

on a related note to the bogeyman thing, Matt Taibbi wrote something about this in his article about going undercover to volunteer for the Bush 2004 campaign in Orlando:
The problem not only with fundamentalist Christians but with Republicans in general is not that they act on blind faith, without thinking. The problem is that they are incorrigible doubters with an insatiable appetite for Evidence. What they get off on is not Believing, but in having their beliefs tested. That's why their conversations and their media are so completely dominated by implacable bogeymen: marrying gays, liberals, the ACLU, Sean Penn, Europeans and so on. Their faith both in God and in their political convictions is too weak to survive without an unceasing string of real and imaginary confrontations with those people -- and for those confrontations, they are constantly assembling evidence and facts to make their case.

But here's the twist. They are not looking for facts with which to defeat opponents. They are looking for facts that ensure them an ever-expanding roster of opponents. They can be correct facts, incorrect facts, irrelevant facts, it doesn't matter. The point is not to win the argument, the point is to make sure the argument never stops. Permanent war isn't a policy imposed from above; it's an emotional imperative that rises from the bottom. In a way, it actually helps if the fact is dubious or untrue (like the Swift-boat business), because that guarantees an argument. You're arguing the particulars, where you're right, while they're arguing the underlying generalities, where they are.

Once you grasp this fact, you're a long way to understanding what the Hannitys and Limbaughs figured out long ago: These people will swallow anything you feed them, so long as it leaves them with a demon to wrestle with in their dreams.

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 6 February 2006 22:14 (eighteen years ago) link

gee-whiz NYT headline today:

Some Democrats Are Sensing Missed Opportunities

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:17 (eighteen years ago) link

Haha. Also in Sports section, "Seattle Seahawks Are Sensing Missed Opportunities" ;-)

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:44 (eighteen years ago) link

The photo for this story is amazing: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/08/national/08king.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

I haven't read the article yet, but I think it could be a Frankie Goes to Hollywood 12" cover for the naughties.

youn, Thursday, 9 February 2006 00:08 (eighteen years ago) link

imyselfam44

youn, Thursday, 9 February 2006 00:12 (eighteen years ago) link

More Democratic cluelessness - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060208/ap_on_go_co/delay_appropriations

A slamdunk example of cronyism and mismanagement, and what does the Democratic spokesman do? He criticizes the Republicans for "standing by their man" - apparently totally oblivious to the fact that phrasing it that way makes the Republicans look solid and upstanding and reliable, as "standing by your man" is something most Americans would consider a virtue. Totally inept handling of the media...

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 9 February 2006 00:54 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't think that was such a bad line -- it conjurs up Tammy Wynette, which makes them sound silly. Try not to bite your own hand off.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 9 February 2006 00:59 (eighteen years ago) link

but that's exactly why its bad! Tammy Wynette is the beleaguered heroine of the song, Republicans = Tammy Wynette! Why would you equate your enemy with a sympathetic underdog heroine?

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 9 February 2006 01:08 (eighteen years ago) link

You're reading way too much into the comment, but out of context I think your post belongs in one of those teh funny threads.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 9 February 2006 01:28 (eighteen years ago) link

so, anyone wanna place any bets on how quickly the Democrats roll over on this new Patriot Act "deal"? After all, can't afford to look like obstructionists on an issue of national security blah blah blah...

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 9 February 2006 20:38 (eighteen years ago) link

Goddammit, this shit is retarded.

Paul Hackett just quit the Senate race in Ohio due to reported pressure from Harry Reid & Chuck Schumer to switch to the House race against Jean Schmidt. Somebody needs to dump the bullshit consultants that the DNC listens to:

Jennifer Duffy, who analyzes Senate races for the Cook Political Report, said that part of what made Democratic leaders nervous about Mr. Hackett was what had also made him so popular with voters.

"Hackett is seen by many as a straight talker, and he became an icon to the liberal bloggers because he says exactly what they have wished they would hear from a politician," Ms. Duffy said. "On the other hand, the Senate is still an exclusive club, and the party expects a certain level of decorum that Hackett has not always shown."

Mr. Hackett was widely criticized last year for using indecent language to describe President Bush. Last month, state Republicans attacked Mr. Hackett for saying their party had been hijacked by religious extremists who he said "aren't a whole lot different than Osama bin Laden."

Though Republicans called for an apology, Mr. Hackett repeated the mantra of his early campaign: "I said it. I meant it. I stand behind it."

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:04 (eighteen years ago) link

Democratic Party Direction = over the falls

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:09 (eighteen years ago) link

the DCCC picked a better-known, more popular, more (politically and substantively) experienced (and, as it happens, more liberal) candidate after Hackett spent too long dithering about whether to enter the race, then chose to make it a relatively quixotic primary context.

who are these consultants?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:09 (eighteen years ago) link

Democratic Party Direction = over the falls

only if it gives in to the desires of some that it become the party of alienation

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:10 (eighteen years ago) link

Gabb, Hackett got declared republican voters to CAMPAIGN for him, fer chrissakes. Last year, he actually got some folks excited for once, and was the first candidate to who I ever actually contributed cash.

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:13 (eighteen years ago) link

apologist.

Won any elections lately? Had any legislative successes lately?

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:14 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh Jesus, it's party of alienating itself from voters by being invertebrates.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Getting folks who already vote Democratic excited /= winning an election. Hackett's House campaign was run by a guy now running Brown's campaign. He was free to run for the House again. He was also free to run for the Senate again, but he waited too long to decide, and Brown got in.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:16 (eighteen years ago) link

if brown wins, it'll look like a smart move. if he loses, lots of people will say they should've run hackett. it's pretty hard to tell which one of them would be more "electable." otoh, pissing off hackett was a bad move, someone should've finessed that, gotten him to graciously withdraw and endorse and campaign for brown. the way it happened is gonna hurt.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:17 (eighteen years ago) link

hey Shakey, explain me how Hackett would have won the primary

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:18 (eighteen years ago) link

who voted in that moveon poll they just sent out? how'd you vote (i voted 'yes')? tell me about that texan dude they were talking about

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:24 (eighteen years ago) link

hang on, lemme find it. I haven't seen it yet.

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:26 (eighteen years ago) link

anybody hear limbaugh this morning talking about how the press is making a bigdeal over the cheney shooting but didn't make a bigdeal over 'hillary shooting vince foster'? or when he read various other hunting accident reports and then said that the msm's not making a big deal about those incidents shows how liberal they are and how much they hate america?

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:26 (eighteen years ago) link

it's pretty hard to tell which one of them would be more "electable."

no it isn't. they're both running against an incumbent with 40% approval ratings, the lowest in the Senate. while theoretically a grapefruit could win, the guy who's more "electable" is the guy with built-in name recognition who doesn't get on the news only because he uses profanity or physically threatens someone who disrupts one of his events. i don't want to let the GOP parlay stuff like that into a victory (wouldn't be extraordinarily hard - go for the McCain "he's nuts" route, or the family values one) when the election is a gimme for our side as a referendum on the incumbent.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:27 (eighteen years ago) link

anybody hear limbaugh this morning talking about how the press is making a bigdeal over the cheney shooting but didn't make a bigdeal over 'hillary shooting vince foster'?

hahahahahaha o rly?

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Congressman Henry Cuellar

oh, this guy. there's been plenty about him floating around online lately. It didn't help that he had the Dubya embrace at the latest SOTU.

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:31 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah apparently yesterday was the tenth anniversary of some felony she committed, probably in relation to her murdering vince foster - NOT THAT YOU'LL HEAR THE OSAMA SYMPATHIZING LIBRUL MSM MENTION IT!

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:32 (eighteen years ago) link

I voted No, and added comments, because I think it's bullshit to pick out Cuellar as an example when he's clearly a BushCo plant of some sort. I also think the idea that most "right-wing" Dems represent "heavily" Dem jurisdictions is ridiculous. You want me to support something, you give me specifics and specific rationales.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:36 (eighteen years ago) link

Hey, let's try to get rid of John Tanner and Collin Peterson and Allen whassissname (Social Security traitor #1) from Florida and further reduce our numbers and geographic coverage! Brilliant!

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:38 (eighteen years ago) link

though maybe by "right-wing" they just mean those Northeastern dudes who represent states with large corporate presences. I get it - an Endangered Species recovery program for the Rockefeller Republican.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:40 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah as long as it's strictly primaries i'm all in favor (plus how can dlc types complain - it's a total triangulation celebration for them), alot depends on the tenor and tone of the campaign ('he's no better/different than the other ticket's guy' is a bad bad idea) and in the general i'd want fall in line. 'he's not liberal enough' is a valid enough concern and 'omg he shook bush's hand' is ridiculous but neither are gonna prompt me to go anywhere near villainizing any dem, not anytime soon at least, maybe when we have solid majorities in congress ("when").

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:42 (eighteen years ago) link

Didn't the Vince Foster thing show up in Ken Starr's final report?

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:43 (eighteen years ago) link

o god speaking of polls that reminds me - i got a REPUBLICAN PARTY CENSUS poll/campfund hitup from the herr ken and the boys at the RNC yesterday (i have no idea HOW or WHY i got it but i have a few theories) - good stuff, i'll transcribe a bit later but here's a teaser:

Do you think U.S. troops should have to serve under United Nations' commanders? (yes, no, undecided)

Do you support President Bush's initiative to allow private religious and charitable groups to do more to help those in need? (yes, no, undecided)

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:51 (eighteen years ago) link

For challenging Dem righties I voted YES in lieu of "Yes shit Sherlock."

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:51 (eighteen years ago) link

lovely (xposT)

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Hackett's going to be on Ed Schultz this hour.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 21:59 (eighteen years ago) link


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