Radical Feminism: Discuss

good feminists are already aware of this.

ed, i don't see how thats a misandrist statament at all.

Does Momus read his own posts and ask "is this actually germane to the discussion, or is it just me again, trying to put spin on something that makes me feel uncomfortable?"

I don't think we can define ourselves as *ourselves* until we stop defining ourselves so much as part of a tribal self, and the only way to lessen the impact of the tribal-self concept is to try and ensure that no tribal self is strengthened above any other.

i have run into many bad feminists in that case. i'm really not trying to pick any kind of argument or anything here, just that after several years in academia doing an arts degree at within a gender and sexuality-obsessed faculty, i react reasonably badly to capital "F" feminism simply coz i found a huge amount of it kneejerk, nonsensical and vastly counterproductive in the sense that it obscured debate on wider issues such as class and race, which i happen to think were far more germane in a predominantly white middle-class environment (as most university english departments are!), especially when no one in three years made any discernible misogynist or homophobic statements. to be fair, no one ever stood up and said "hello my name is heinrich and i am a committed national socialist" either, but i hope you can see what i am saying in relation to concentration on an issue which i see as having already won many of its ideological and practical battles preventing an insititution/group looking at itself and noticing how its predominantly white, middle-class bias was indicative of other social issues which needed addressing far more urgently... i think this works in the context of society as a whole, too, not just my own academic experience. i suppose we all have our own concerns/biases/chips on shoulders etc which make us want to prioritise certain issues (mine being fairly transparent here) but the fact that i think class and race are for more important issue than sexism now solely focuses on the fact that i think feminism has, for the most part, achieved its goals. not that there aren't still certain inequities, but they're now much less pressing than those of poverty, racial prejudice etc in my view. of course, i consider myself a reasonable human being and as such would say that i am a pretty decent advocate of women's rights (or as decent as i can be!) but only as part of the bigger picture...

Hey nice floral metaphor btw.

Feminism, although it's a social science like economics, has a much different history because of the ideas/tradition of social change and consciousness-raising that's gone on in the various 'waves' of feminism. Because feminists in leadership positions promoted their ideas as something everyone could participate in, there is a sort of popular language and understanding of feminism (for better or worse) as an activist/participatory culture. Everyone sort of understands economics a little bit, but no-one is having kitchen table meetings to talk about how they can affect the demand curve.

This could be a terribly faulty comparison; the point I'm trying to make is that feminism is in a difficult place because it's at once tied up in the language of academia and the issues of everyday people.

Aw, this is too bad. Can you imagine the heated debates over diminishing marginal utility and how much it *should* affect the demand curve? *grins* Besides, it is sorta nice in a math/econ geek sort of way to think of giant whiteboards being installed in kitchens everywhere across the country so that P-Q plots can be drawn up.

yes it is it is...

--academia -- academic feminists participate in activism and grassroots organizing. they also participate in policymaking and advocacy for those who don't have the power to protect their rights. there may be a difference in film crit/lit crit, where they might not to the extent that the social science people do.

-sex vs. gender: Gender is the social meaning given to biological characteristics (sex)

-theory vs. praxis: Is feminism a philosophy, and therefore useless mental circles that can't change anything OR is feminism something that happens in women's everyday lives, and is about activism and changing the world that is immediately around *you*?

-the gender binary: current thought is this--gender is a two sided coin. you can't talk about women's oppression without realizing that men also contribute to excluding women AND other women exclude each other as the price of being accepted in a make world.

patriarchy oppresses men by imposing an oppressive masculinity that estranges them from culturally unacceptable feeling (emotions) and expects them to act in callous ways (the locker room, the can't-you-take-it [pussy] attitude, equating women with weakness, women are an insult (bitch, cunt, pussy, whore, ho, skank, slut vs. the one word we have for men: dick and no word that is equivalent to the others).

Patriarchy (meaning society is set up by and for men because we can't escape the history that made it that way--it's in place, what we inherited) oppresses men and women by demanding compulsory heterosexuality.

--gender and sexuality are now discussed as a continuum, where there are degrees of:

1. conforming to the gender stereotype of the culture you live in
2. conforming to the biological sexuality you have (e.g. intersexed babies, ambiguous chromosomes, sex assignment at birth surgery, transsexual)

--diversity and inclusion: see bell hooks "All of the men are black, all of the women are white, but some of us are brave". recent feminism has indeed pointed out that every individual is a collection of difference social, economic, cultural, and historical standpoints, and people and institutions in society treat them differently as a result. feminism has grown into a movement that seeks a more just society in general, and race, class, and gender all intertwine.

--feminism and change: feminism is about viewing things simultaneously from your standpoint and connecting your experience to that of women as a group. There will be some things you share and some things you don't. For example, women still make about 75 cents to the man's dollar in wages for doing the exact same job. [these are US gov't figures, so look it up, don't de-rail by asking me to look it up for you. start at www.fedstats.gov]. If you are a woman, you share that with other women, even though you might not share other ideas about sexism, or what is and isn't sexist. So you might want to join other women in actions that aim to close the wage gap.

--privilege: sexism like racism, is institutional. meaning
prejudice: the beliefs an individual holds
racism/sexism: social institutions and laws are set up in a way that systematically denies opportunities/ignores the concerns and realities of the lives of the group involved. Example: gay marriage. That is is illegal in most of the US ignores the reality of lesbian and gay lives. The structure is not set up to take them into account. This is just one example.

--privilege: no one thinks they participate in a racist/sexist system, and no one thinks they have privilege. Example: a black person applies for a job and doesn't get it. they wonder "is it because i'm black?" if you are white you never have to ask the question. You are free from that and you don't even realize it. if you are male and you tell a sexist joke you don't have to wonder how it might make women around you feel, because the social pressure on them is so great you know they won't say anything about it. This is called "silencing". Silencing the voices of others includes belittling them, trivializing thenm (don't you have a sense of humor?) [when it comes to serious issues being trivializes, and as domestic abuse and childhood abuse survivor NO I DON'T because it is not funny. Do I have a sense of humor when people are not trying to trivialize serious things? YES I DO].

--being a woman doesn't mean you have a feminist political awareness (meaning are you really up in it, do you know what people are discussing or just your stereotype of it)

--there are all kinds of feminists, feminisms, and definitions of feminism and the good thing is when people talk about them.

"two weeks."

In that case I might just be a feminist, because I too believe any woman should have the right to do all those things.

I'm trying very hard to think of examples of something men can do that no woman can, or vice versa, and failing. Child birth maybe.

what is "equality"?

I think what I'm trying to get at is that men and women _are_ different in so many ways. I bet you've at least consiodered my gender whilst reading this.
In my experience, for example:

Women are more playful;
more likely to be interested in flowers;
able to give birth.

Men are more likely to get physically agressive;
taller;
more interested in microelectronics.

other than the biological characteristics, this is complete bullshit, even given your qualifiers. i'm willing to believe that these characteristics are prevalent within your experience (outside the US?), but your experience is filtered through what you are taught just as people fill gender roles based upon what they are taught, how they are socialized. thus, saying "men are" or "women are" suggests something innate too easily.

ppl talk like there's only one type of gay guy, the faggy, campy hairdresser/florist type. What about all the footy playing, hairy, macho gay guys n bears?

which is just another stereotype, though many ppl play the role. what about the guys (or girls) who are not satisfactorily depicted by any stereotype (like almost everyone on earth) but happen to be gay?

it is sorta nice in a math/econ geek sort of way to think of giant whiteboards being installed in kitchens everywhere across the country so that P-Q plots can be drawn up.

popular discussions of anything academic would be interesting, but as respects econ 101 (which admittedly i never had much success in, and should know more about) most people sate their need for certainty in less complicated ways. < /zing>

Patriarchy (meaning society is set up by and for men because we can't escape the history that made it that way--it's in place, what we inherited) oppresses men and women by demanding compulsory heterosexuality.

who exactly is a "Patriarchy" (or, what does it mean that society is "set up by and for men"; what is "society")? how is heterosexuality "compulsory" and who demands that it be so?

no one thinks they have privilege

this is complete bullshit. i am intensely aware of being privileged as a matter of class, and in other respects. you're presuming to speak for everyone in the world here.

More recent feminism, and some things that link with music and popular culture =

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if you are male and you tell a sexist joke you don't have to wonder how it might make women around you feel, because the social pressure on them is so great you know they won't say anything about it

not where I come from.

and gabb, that was an example. and you are not the whole world either, and can't speak for others. i was sumarizing, not speaking for others.

, and actually i can post another more selective bib if you like, more hooks, pat hill collins etc etc. but this was the one most handy.

IN MY EXPERIENCE, for example:

Women are more playful;
more likely to be interested in flowers;
able to give birth.

Men are more likely to get physically agressive;
taller;
more interested in microelectronics.

Most of those things are GENERAL TENDENCIES, obviously there are violent women and men who grow roses.

other than the biological characteristics, this is complete bullshit, even given your qualifiers. i'm willing to believe that these characteristics are prevalent within your experience (outside the US?), but your experience is filtered through what you are taught just as people fill gender roles based upon what they are taught, how they are socialized. thus, saying "men are" or "women are" suggests something innate too easily. -- gabbneb (gabbne...), August 31st, 2003.

I do live outside the US but I don't know why that would make a difference.

Yes my experience is filtered through what I am taught I guess, but these things are my own observations.
I've been told (news, newspapers, documentaries, etc.) that men are more likely to get physically agressive and that tallies with my observations.
I'm sure someone must have told me at some point that women are able to give birth, I've never seen it actually happen except on TV.

The other four things above no one has ever told me, I've just seen it.

people fill gender roles based upon what they are taught,
Very true, that helps explain WHY men and women behave (generally, in my experience) in different ways but it DOES NOT contradict my assertion that (generally, in my experience) they DO behave differently.

thus, saying "men are" or "women are" suggests something innate too easily.

I think you're guilty of jumping to conclusions here, based on what you've been taught or experienced. I am not trying to suggest anything innate at all. Though I do believe there are some (generally, in my experience) innate differences I've not said anything about them in what I've written so far.

"twooo weeeeeeks."

"but whole numbers have just one property, namely what number they are."

------------------------
That's not fair to the integers--they have lots of fun properties. 2, say,
has the properties of being 2, the {square root of 2} squared, the square root of 4, the set of all numbers that satisfies
(-infinity, 2) < x < (2, infinity), etc etc.

As far as feminism goes, Cixous can do but er um bell hooks is smartre.
-- adam (hexenductio...), August 31st, 2003.
------------------------

Okay, I was trying tacitly to _keep_ it to integers which would rule out yr root two problem but yes I should have used a better word than 'property'.

What I really want to say is that any number (cardinal, integer, rational real, or indeed any number (ONE DIMENSIONAL) NUMBER PEDANT!!! :-) )) _is_ (can be completely defined by/represented by) just a single number.

But saying a number is just a number whilst being true seems too tautological and I don't think illustrates what I was trying to get at. Once you know that the number you're talking about is, say, two then you know EVERYTHING about it.
All the properties you listed immediately follow.

BTW this:

the set of all numbers that satisfies (-infinity, 2) < x < (2, infinity)

Is well dodgy. You're confusing numbers and sets.

I'm going to ignore the (slight) possibility that you're using x to represent a set here and defining < to operate on sets because you were talking of the _number_ 2 immediately above.
(Yes, I know the integers can be defined as sets...)

Firstly you've not said what x is, reword to:
the set of all real numbers x that satisfies
(-infinity, 2) < x < (2, infinity)

I've said real to rule out the possibilty that something like
2<= 2 + i <=2 could cause a problem.

You want to include 2 in the ranges, so:
the set of all real numbers x that satisfies
(-infinity, 2] < x < [2, infinity)

But the less than relation is usually defined as being between two numbers, not a number and a range as you've shown, so you should have something like:
the set of all real numbers x
that satisfy 2 <= x <= 2

But this is still a set not a number, so what you really want is:
2 is the unique member of the set of all real numbers x that satisfy 2 <= x <= 2

I bet I've made a stupid mistake in there, hope you have as much fun spotting it!

***MATHS SUB-THREAD ENDS***

I've no idea how this is going to look cos i can't get it past the HTML checker for now, but anyway...

I'd like to know too. I think women play just as big a part in Patriarchy as men, whatever it is.

"if you are male and you tell a sexist joke you don't have to wonder how it might make women around you feel, because the social pressure on them is so great you know they won't say anything about it"

not where I come from.
-- gabbneb (gabbne...), August 31st, 2003.

Certianly not round here either.

--being a woman doesn't mean you have a feminist political awareness (meaning are you really up in it, do you know what people are discussing or just your stereotype of it)

I think the second paragraph here is gently 'silencing' women who are not active feminists.
Perhaps the men who tell these jokes aren't doing it on purpose?

And about RJG's trolling. I think that's the disguise Arnold Swarzenegger's character wears in Total Recall when he's trying to get past customs, he says he's staying for "two weeks".
When he's found out the woman's face splits open and reveal a man inside.

Still don't really see what that has to do with anything.

oh yeah and i am in the USA, where the majority of women who are murdered are murdered by their spouses, domestic partners, or boyfriends.

just raising questions - i wonder about the sex breakdown of US murder victims. i wonder whether the majority of men who are murdered are murdered by someone they know. i imagine that the majority of murderers are men. i wonder if the last is the best way to view this subject.

when it comes to serious issues being trivializes, and as domestic abuse and childhood abuse survivor NO I DON'T because it is not funny

this may be inappropriate and if so i apologize in advance and anyone is welcome to get rid of this part of my post, but you raised the point so i'll go with it in one direction - do you think feminism is more important than childhood abuse? is the latter part of the former and is it discussed enough?

Do I have a sense of humor when people are not trying to trivialize serious things? YES I DO

i find it disturbing when people trivialize serious things as well. i once almost got into a physical fight (which would be like unheard of from me and which i would undoubtedly have lost resoundingly) with a friend - the grandson of a former supreme court justice, no less - who didn't vote in a national election because the line was too long. but joking about a serious subject does not necessarily trivialize it, and intentions can be misread on here if you're unfamiliar with someone or can't discern their tone. some of the most outspoken political people i know are quite willing to be funny or ironic about things that are quite important to them.

also, because thrice is nicer than twice - "this is complete bullshit"

RJG is being TRULY offensive and disrespectful, and further he is creeping me out.

Why on earth should we have to think about which of those two things is more important? They both are!

(gabbneb, if I understand what you're getting at, you're suggesting that someone might become a feminist _because_ they were abused. If that is what you're hinting at then please start another thread, this one is complicated enough already)

for instance sometimes you start thinking of women in a context separate from every other reality. like saying on this list, women should be able to do anything they want: be a housewife or a brain surgeon or a sex worker or a pro athlete. well, can anyone regardless of sex do those things? or are the class, economic, legal, and skill-set obstructions? then you get into all the other messy factors of life that prevent people everyone from achieving what they want to do. and can we judge whether what they want is valid or not and worth fighting for (ie. what does a housewife do)?

Lolita, youre second paragraph particularly sums up very nicely a lot of what I think. Thanks.

RJG, was I right about it being from Total Recall?

I have a whole spiel about theorising killing identity politics (and socialism which is the catchall for all equality issues) by taking control of the fight away from people most affected by inequality and reducing it to factional bickering by people who weren't really that oppressed in the first place, but we'll come to all of that tomorrow.

Radical Feminism: sees male supremacism (patriarchy) as the root of societal ills; strong focus on the politics of biology. One version of radical feminism is political, rationalist, and theoretical; feels women's biology (birthing, menstruation, etc.) under patriarchy limits women's access to and power in the public sphere; rejects viewing women as closer to nature.

This is from an "eco-feminist" web site (ugh), but it's close enough.

Most people use the term disparagingly, because they don't know what it is at all.

I don't have time to write about this too much, but the key book is Shulamith Firestone's The Dialectic of Sex. I don't think there are too many radical feminists around these days, in spite of what conservatives say (the ones they call "radical" are in fact "liberal"). Radical feminists used to question economics and the nuclear family - all sorts of things. Radical doesn't mean "extreme", it just means getting to the root of something.

Liberal feminism - see "PC". Liberal feminists don't question institutions too much - many of them are far too in love with our criminal justice system IMO, to give one example.

Over time I've become more accepting that there are groups whose frames of reference and basic understanding of reality are sufficiently removed from mine that good faith dialogue with them is impossible. I spend a lot less time arguing with people and more time trying to discern my own beliefs, because I at least trust that good faith dialogue with myself is still possible. :)

Most of the time it's much more useful to argue without using blanket terminology and just give three specific examples in lieu of the term. No one is ever talking about the same thing as you usually.

You can believe that race is largely socially constructed without then using a colourblind society which is not the case to steamroll over people’s lived lives; that cartoon people who believe that gender is bullshit find it so important to do this to trans ppl in particular suggests to me that these ppl are just arseholes

*CERTAIN people lmao fml

You can believe that race is largely socially constructed without then using a colourblind society which is not the case to steamroll over people’s lived lives;

I don't think this comparison works, TERFs aren't arguing that we live in a sex-blind society, or that we should act like we are. and most people who support the idea that you can identify as any particular gender regardless of your biological sex or socialisation as male or female would not support the idea that you can identify as any race regardless of what your physical appearance/dna/heritage or socialisation

Was the Cherry Jones character (and the friends at the woman-fest) on Transparent supposed to represent "terfs"?

yes. I thought the music festival episode was memorable

this thread has been interesting and educational for me