that's my point. if i defended wiretapping on the basis of its legality you'd say the legality is irrelevant. i'm saying that the exact definition by the constitution of the term 'treason' is irrelevant to determining is snowden betrayed his country.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:06 (ten years ago) link
if*
you don't even have to grant snowden's libertarian premises too much to see that being on the run from the USG and betraying the nation in toto are different things
― goole, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:07 (ten years ago) link
I think there are TREMENDOUS implied moral differences among, say, "unauthorized disclosure," "espionage" and "treason."
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:08 (ten years ago) link
i consider the G-20 leak a betrayal of his nation. obviously reasonable people can disagree.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:08 (ten years ago) link
yes, i agree. that's why i used the term 'treason.' bc of the moral force of the term. xp
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:09 (ten years ago) link
why are there tremendous implied moral differences among 'espionage' and 'treason'
what if the country that you are treasoning with is actually of a higher moral character
― iatee, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:09 (ten years ago) link
i'm ready to admit that he or the G20 leaker broke laws (though maybe i'd want to see some laws changed), but that none of his offenses constituted treason
― look at my watch/I'm in the club and everyone's looking at me/fuck th (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:10 (ten years ago) link
the g-20 spying was done by the british, how does that follow?
― goole, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:11 (ten years ago) link
oh right i forgot he was the g20 leaker too
― look at my watch/I'm in the club and everyone's looking at me/fuck th (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:11 (ten years ago) link
what if you betray your family business to another business that is more ethical? humans have long recognized that betraying your family/community/nation has inherent ethical problems, not just problems of inherent moral judgement.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:11 (ten years ago) link
xxp British + NSA both afaict
maybe i'm just less of a nationalist than confused-Marxist mordy
― look at my watch/I'm in the club and everyone's looking at me/fuck th (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:12 (ten years ago) link
can we talk about how hilarious it is that one of the examples they are using to show that this program is working is that it averted an attack on the NYSE
― they are either militarists (ugh) or kangaroos (?) (DJP), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:12 (ten years ago) link
why am i a confused-marxist? i don't feel confused.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:12 (ten years ago) link
about hyphen use?
― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:13 (ten years ago) link
yeah i should say complicated marxist, your understanding of marxism is def superior to mine tbf it just confuses me at times (tho i generally like it)
― look at my watch/I'm in the club and everyone's looking at me/fuck th (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:14 (ten years ago) link
NYSE, the Sacred Seat of the American state
― ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:14 (ten years ago) link
alfred otm ban me
i'm not even sure it's relevant here. i don't know about any radical free information principle in traditional marxism.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:15 (ten years ago) link
what 'enemy' is comforted by talking about the g-20 spying?
funny enough acc to the guardian the spying was kind of old-timey: fake internet cafes!
The same document also refers to GCHQ, MI6 and others setting up internet cafes which "were able to extract key logging info, providing creds for delegates, meaning we have sustained intelligence options against them even after conference has finished". This appears to be a reference to acquiring delegates' online login details.
i'm sure the british are pissed but it's not treason to talk about this.
― goole, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:16 (ten years ago) link
sorry, I don't consider "telling countries that already know we are spying on them about a specific spying incident" to occupy the same moral plane as "taking up arms against the United States government."
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:17 (ten years ago) link
i don't know why you're so hung up on 'enemy.' i consider pollard's actions treasonous and he was supplying information to an 'ally.' xp
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:17 (ten years ago) link
i'm hung up on it because it's the language of the law
― goole, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:18 (ten years ago) link
i think mordechai vanunu was definitely a traitor to his country (and he was even convicted of treason iirc!), and he just leaked to the UK press. not to a specific enemy of israel.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:18 (ten years ago) link
ok, but i'm not making strict arguments about the US legal code. i don't think the US can or should prosecute snowden under the treason act. i still think his actions may be treasonous.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:19 (ten years ago) link
just in a vaguely traitory hates his mother nation and wants his countrymen to die kind of a way
― goole, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:21 (ten years ago) link
well i can't speak to his motivations. i'm sure he's very idealistic and thinks he is doing the right thing.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:22 (ten years ago) link
But he's really a filthy traitor.
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:24 (ten years ago) link
Anyway, all hail the Rodinia!
i'm sure the rosenbergs had idealistic motivations as well
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:25 (ten years ago) link
Sure. They wanted Meryl Streep to play Ethel.
― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:27 (ten years ago) link
He was subsequently lured to Italy by a Mossad agent, where he was drugged and abducted by Israeli intelligence agents.[4] He was transported to Israel and ultimately convicted in a trial that was held behind closed doors.[4]
cool country
― look at my watch/I'm in the club and everyone's looking at me/fuck th (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:27 (ten years ago) link
what if we compromised and decided this was a little bit treason and a little bit espionage
― iatee, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:28 (ten years ago) link
vanunu is lucky he wasn't executed xp
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:28 (ten years ago) link
L-R: Treason, espionage
http://www.bionicdisco.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/DonnyMarie_Show_Jan_1978.jpg
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:29 (ten years ago) link
he committed treason against the dystopian 2013 america by aiding the imaginary future america he wants to create
― iatee, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:33 (ten years ago) link
anyone who tries to change america is kinda committing treason when you look at it like that
― iatee, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:34 (ten years ago) link
― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:36 (ten years ago) link
― Mordy , Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:25 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yes it was marxism
― goole, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:37 (ten years ago) link
Proverbs 16:2 "All the ways of a man [are] clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits."
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 15:39 (ten years ago) link
"We had quite a bit of trouble deciphering the phone calls at first."
http://ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/dark-knight-rises-stock-exchange.jpg
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 16:00 (ten years ago) link
they see me snowdenthey hatinpatrollin they tryna catch me speakin treason
― steening in your HOOSless carriage (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 16:00 (ten years ago) link
i assume the G-20 leak is one of the things that barton gillman refused to publish. i wonder what other information he has (he might literally have lists of names).
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 16:04 (ten years ago) link
FedSmith.com Users Say Snowden is a TraitorIs Edward Snowden a hero or a traitor for leaking the information about the NSA? FedSmith.com users say he is a traitor in our recent survey.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 16:06 (ten years ago) link
He is a hero in that he has exposed the inappropriateness of having contractors do the work that federal employees should do. He is a traitor because he handled it inappropriately.
lol
― steening in your HOOSless carriage (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 16:08 (ten years ago) link
I guess if we are at war with Terror, and Terror is fear of the the unknown, and this guy made is so that there is less that is unknown to us, then yes in some way he is threatening our ability to be Terrorized. So he's the opposite of a traitor.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 16:10 (ten years ago) link
the NSA FISA disclosures were technically legal but that doesn't mean that they weren't a violation against the american public.
informing the american public about secret policies they have a clear interest in knowing about is a 'violation against them'?
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 19:29 (ten years ago) link
always hilarious to see liberals eagerly standing up for the espionage act, passed by notable racist warmonger woodrow wilson largely as an excuse to silence domestic opposition and lock up antiwar radicals.
Have there been photos of these fake G20 internet cafes?
― lols lane (Eazy), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 19:41 (ten years ago) link