help me learn japanese

Well I started the big one, learning Kanji, the Heisig way for now. The ios app is really great for practicing each set, that's for sure. For those who know Kanji, how many did you do per day / session?

when i used heisig i was doing about 30 a day, but promptly forgot all of them. rote memorization of kanji/yomi has worked better for me.

Promptly as in you forgot them the next day when practicing or a month later earlier kanjis were forgotten.

i just forgot all the mnemonics provided by heisig as well as the ones i'd made up for the kanjis.

heisig was in fact useful for me though, in that it helped me think of kanji in terms of being made up of smaller parts that reoccur often, which made learning them afterwards a lot easier.

i usually try to do 5 a day but it's been a couple weeks since i've learned any new kanji :\ i've been reviewing the ones i know though, and there's probably a 95% retention rate.

So you went through the whole program?

Whether it sticks or not I'm having a good time, although only a few days and 100+ kanji in, it's nice to be able to understand some pieces of the puzzles.

Thought I'd link to this guy's JLPT related site, I'm a looooong way off N5 even, but It's insightful to hear about one student's ups and down. I also like the fact that he is kinda low-key and doesn't come across as super erudite, peppy and all HI THERE like some folk's websites or YT channels.

http://jlptbootcamp.com/

doesn't come across as super erudite, peppy and all HI THERE like some folk's websites or YT channels.

a big part of me wants to murder that "fluent in 3 months" dude for this reason

So after reading that alljapaneseallthetime article that Clouds linked to over a month ago (thanks again), I decided to take 5 weeks away from lessons to finish learning Kana and also to go back through my workbook from the beginning and try to lock in the basics.

The 'stop-stopping' advice really worked for me, even if is just 30 mins with my flashcards or scribbling out Kana some amount of study has been a daily constant for 5 weeks. I had my first lesson back today and it went really well and for the first time I didn't have that niggly catch-up feeling, in-fact I was relaxed enough to realise that my listening comprehension is complete shite and I act weird and panicky when spoken too, wtf!

Otherwise I'm happy.

yeah, i've taken that article to heart as well and have been more diligently studying as of late. almost up to 450 kanji now. ^_^

Another example is a school janitor in Japan was used to be called a kozukai-san (小使いさん "chore person"). Some felt that the word had a derogatory meaning, so it was changed to yōmuin (用務員 "task person"). Now yōmuin is considered demeaning, so there is shift to use kōmuin (校務員 "school task member") or kanrisagyōin (管理作業員 "maintenance member") instead.

Mister Saturday night...

http://i41.tinypic.com/mighm8.jpg

Crossed 500 kanjis last week myself. No issues recalling them from keywords, but using Heisig I do of course not know their pronounciation or use in words at all yet. The official app is essential - without it I doubt I would be able to write out any kanji at all, I'm too lazy to make elaborate systems myself, but through it I find myself practicing all the time and reinforcing my command over the ones I've learned.

I know I will at least spend this year getting to the end of all the standard kanjis, and that's before I start studying pronounciation. A long process and I'm sure many teachers would tell me to focus more on grammar and typical lessons first but I really want to get all the initial alphabet business out of the way.

The particle Ga is kinda pissing me off, and now I've just found out that it can act as an object marker with certain non action verbs and adjectival nouns. Go fuck yourself Ga

^^ UK Ga Rage

This thread is terrifying to me.

I'll be in Tokyo for six weeks this winter. I'm really crap at learning languages, mostly because I've never really gotten into it; languages just aren't my thing, I guess.

Currently living in Mexico and can't even summon up the fortitude to learn decent Spanish, gah.

Advice for the bare minimum Japanese I should strive for to get more out of my Tokyo trip? And how should I go about trying to get to "survival" stage Japanese? I don't know if I should focus on spoken language, or try to learn enough to read signs and such?

If you're just going to be in Tokyo, I don't think you need to bother learning to read signs. Probably more trouble than it's worth. All the trains have prominent listings in English and every station had someone who spoke English, I had no trouble getting around when I visited two years ago. Some basic Japanese phrases might be useful to learn, but I found no end of people that knew English and were happy to try it out. There were less of those people the further I got from the major cities.

just remember wakarimasen

One easy-to-learn thing that may be useful is how the Japanese say English words like "hotel". Sometimes I had problems getting people to understand what word I was saying because their have their own way of saying the word.

Yeah, aim for conversational Japanese. Signs are impossible unless you learn kanji, which takes forever. Lots of what you'll need on signage (like in the train stations or neighborhood maps) will be in romaji anyway.

In conversation, greeting and apologies are the easiest way to connect with people even if you can't speak a word otherwise. "Sumimasen" and "gomen" and "hajimemashite" and "onegai shimasu" and "arigatou" and "konnichiwa", etc.

Plus there are some one word exclamations that come up often and are easy enough to learn, like "samui, ne" (since you're there in winter), "ii, ne", "oishii", "kawaii", etc. If you can learn what to say when someone else says "samui, ne!" to you (and they will, at least 5 times a day -- you can say "sou da, ne!" in reply), you've got instant conversational Japanese.

When all else fails you can say "ah, sumimasen, nihongo wakarimasen" and most people will gladly try to switch to English.

Beyond that, you'll get a lot of mileage out of learning to read katakana and pronouce familiar English words in that style. Loanwords are everywhere, and many times a katakanized version of the English word will do the trick when you can't remember the Japanese word. Most Japanese learn at least 1000 English words in school but pronounce them in Japanese, using the katakana syllables, and have trouble deciphering them otherwise. So for instance they understand "kyatto" much more easily than the way we say "cat" as English native speakers. It's a lot easier to speak English with a Japanese accent than to learn Japanese itself (sad but true), and you'll probably find it easier to learn to communicate that way than memorizing a long list of actual Japanese words.

After that the best thing is to learn the numbers and money if you're going to be a tourist or doing some shopping, plus some common nouns for things you'll need around town, like "eki" or "konbini" (many of which will also be loanwords, like "takushii"). You can combine the nouns and the numbers to make simple sentences, which will be readily understood even if you don't master any of the grammar: "nikuman hitotsu" is readily understandable even if you don't add the "wo" particle or remember to be polite and say "kudasai".

Conversational Japanese is a forgiving language at a beginner level, and the effort to try goes a long way in most situations. When in doubt, smile and nod and apologize.

Oh thank you much for that info! Soooooo is there a particularly good place on the internets (or in book form) to learn about the differences and relationships between kanji, romaji, and katakana? Because that is how little I know about the Japanese language :(

I have been super lucky with the smile/nod/apologize approach in Mexico; without fail, everyone I have encountered has been very kind in trying to communicate despite my significant limitations. The next time I am in the U.S. and see one of those "this is AMERICA, speak ENGLISH" hanging on a shop door I am going to challenge the proprietor in a big way. That shit embarrasses me to no end on so many levels.

Unrelated: I am afraid that I am going to love it so much that I want to move there, which is a whole other can of worms.

^^^by "it" I mean "Japan"

You can learn Kana, which is Hiragana and Katakana combined, but I don't know if you'll really need it for six weeks in Tokyo, you would be better served learning some survival phrases like Plasmon suggests.

I think I might have a bunch of Survival phrase podcasts that I paid for a couple of years ago that got me through my first visit, If I can find them I'll organise a WeTr@nsfer link or something if you mail me.

You don't need to learn katakana (I wouldn't bother with hiragana as a tourist/visitor) for 6 weeks in Tokyo, but the world will seem a lot more familiar if you do and you'll have a much easier time going to a restaurant or shop on your own and figuring out what's what. With a few months lead time, it's a very manageable task.

Not sure what to recommend for studying, I learned them years ago by writing them out on a piece of paper and then making flash cards. There are some orthographical tricks to learn about how the characters combine ("shi" with a little "ya" is "sha" for instance) and some conventions to learn about how kana are substituted for English phonemes (words starting with "v" start with "b" for instance), but that's also not hard to oick up.

Almost all the katakana you see in real life are English words, most of the rest are from other European languages that you can decipher with a moment's thought (like "pan" meaning bread, from Portuguese I think originally but very similar to "pain" en francais). I learned to feel comfortable reading katakana by hanging around Tsutaya (video/music shop) and reading the movie titles and band names on the CDs. You could do a GIS for Japanese movie posters until "supiido" becomes recognizable as "Speed".

god dammit, i really dropped the ball on this

starting back school next month, chose japanese studies as my major — feel like i'm nowhere near being up to the level i should be at this point.

Me too, I've just taken voluntary redundancy whilst trying to start a freelance career and being terrible at multitasking found it hard to concentrate on studies. But I got 16 days in JP in April so imma start back again soon.

I got through Heisig's Kanji course but then had to finish up my Korean studies instead of repeating what I learned. Still left with lots of good knowledge from that, repeating now. Now done with Korean so Japanese takes a step up as full time hobby and only language being studied. Got a book teaching JP in KR.

More specifially 'Genki'.

Genki is what we use in the classes I take. It's kind of weird that they present all the new grammatical constructs for the chapter at the beginning and then have all the practice afterward (makes for a lot of switching back and forth) but it's a pretty solid book otherwise. I keep wondering whether Mary and Takeshi got together though - they are vague about it

i've been curious about genki for a while but haven't wanted to start another textbook after sticking with nakama for so long. the problem w/ nakama is that there are so many class-dependent exercises ("work with a partner", "work as a group" etc) that i end up skipping most of them. ideally, i would like a textbook that prioritizes grammar and sentence construction over situational language. i also need to find a better way to study vocabulary.

I'm not sure what you mean by situational language but Genki is pretty focused on grammar and sentence construction. The exercises are split about half for solo, half for groups, maybe more favored towards solo - sounds like it might be what you're looking for (nb: I only have Genki 2, but I assume Genki 1 is similar). It's a lot better at explaining concepts than the book I used in college, Yookoso. I still use the Android app Obenkyo for vocab practice, but I'm sure there are better ones out there. I haven't looked much.

situational as in "how to order at a restaurant" or "japanese weather reports"

iirc we used both youkoso and genki at different points in my "formal" japanese education but i don't think i remember enough to compare them. i do remember liking genki. also lol at me saying at the beginning of this thread that i've been meaning to start studying again—still haven't gotten around to it, don't really know how to go about starting. i've had a copy of rosetta stone sitting on my computer for a while now though

I'm getting ready for the final next week in JPN 401 at UHawaii @ Manoa. We've been using 上級へのとびら (Tobira) as our textbook for 1 1/2 years. Class has been brutal, but I've progressed in the language. Also kind of burned out by now. It feels like we hit a plateau where acquiring vocab is like an endless battle. The reading focus has taken precedence over situational stuff, but I suppose you should get that through watching TV/movies and listening to music. Vocabulary is supposed to be acquired well through "extensive reading", but you have to get through a lot of kanji to even start into native materials. I must be a masochist, because it's mostly been enjoyable, though having a great sensei helps.

just submitted my placement test for the upcoming semester at depaul — i'm expecting to start at JPN 105 instead 201, since the courses at my community college were probably a lot easier than depaul's. i don't mind a bit of backtracking, and it'll be good to have some structured learning again.

err, quarter not semester

XP I'm looking back at the grammar in my last post, I think I'm turning Japanese.

Anyway, what an insanely hard language to learn it is.

so classes have been going for a coupla weeks — this is my first class taught IN japanese and it's a challenge, but i feel like i've improved in the language already. after classes a few of the students and the t.a. chat in japanese for about an hour. she's a bit younger than sensei and so a bit easier to talk to, and actually knew who YMO were when i said i liked them... afterwards she asked if liked perfume because she thought they were similar. :D

:) I think you could draw a line between the two very easily, as you probably could with most JP pop acts.

the other day during my conversation practice i was having trouble explaining how people from where i'm from (georgia) can sometimes be very polite and friendly to your face, but insult you when you're not around/if you're perceived as an outsider — which made me realize that i have no idea how to talk about things that i don't like (apart from simple things like food and movies, and only then as the opposite of "like")! which made me wonder: does learning to talk about troublesome or unfortunate situations comes later than talking about positive things in language learning?

also finding it extremely jarring to go back to english after these chat sessions, like i've suddenly recovered an amazing power of description i'd forgotten i'd had. weird.

anyone have any experience with using ANKI for kanji/vocab learning? is there any way to "yoke" it to, say, jisho.org to streamline adding new cards? share tips with me!

There are amazing free apps for Android called Japanese Katakana and Japanese Hiragana that show you the symbol and the stroke order and you can practice as much as you like and just flip through the alphabet. It's pretty good for keeping in practice! I bet they have a Kanji one too.

i don't have a smart phone, but i'm thinking of getting one just so i can use apps like that. also carrying around my giant furigana dictionary everywhere is kind of impractical.

So I just started learning Japanese.

I'm doing the Pimsleur audio MP3s right now. It's going pretty good but slow. I'm doing 2 to 3 lessons/audio files a week because I don't advance until I got it all down. But I just started! I'm on lesson 4, going in to lesson 5.

I also acquired the Rosetta Stone for Japanese (1, 2, and 3). But I'm told not to start on that yet til I'm more advanced.

SO, my question is:

What are good resources to learn to write/read? Am I looking to write/read kanji, hiragana, katakana, or something else or what?

I signed up for WaniKani for now.

it depends on what your goals are. are you aiming just to visit for a few weeks days and want to be able to get around? are you trying for complete fluency?

for reading, start with getting down hiragana perfectly, then katakana before even thinking about kanji. write the characters over and over, reading the pronunciation out loud to yourself until it becomes mind-numbingly boring, and then do that again the next day, and again, &c. you'll never forget them.

for kanji, most kanji learners dictionaries will do. kodansha is a good publisher and i'd recommend picking up anything you find from them.

find a textbook. my university classes use nakama, but that book is really set up with the assumption you are taking a class with a teacher. a lot of people like genki and youkoso for self-study, but i haven't tried those myself.

pimsleur is okay for learning set phrases, but eventually you'll want to be able to express yourself in situations where those phrases don't quite fit, and so learning grammar and sentence construction is important. but pimsleur at least gives you a taste of the rhythm and pronunciation of japanese.

really the best thing you can do is: find a native speaker and talk to them. obviously you won't be able to do this until you've been working at the basics for a bit.

i can't speak on the rosetta stones, but to make a maybe specious anecdotal observation, i've never met a single person who was fluent in another language solely through RS. take that as you will.

n.b. i myself am not fluent, but i'm into my 2nd year of study and finally having tons of breakthroughs, and am now looking into study abroad options for next year. it's tough going, but worth it!

oh, and FLASH CARDS. USE THEM.

it depends on what your goals are. are you aiming just to visit for a few weeks days and want to be able to get around? are you trying for complete fluency?

I'm hoping to be near fluency. I speak other languages, so I understand one can never be completely fluent. None of them are Asian languages, though.

for reading, start with getting down hiragana perfectly, then katakana before even thinking about kanji. write the characters over and over, reading the pronunciation out loud to yourself until it becomes mind-numbingly boring, and then do that again the next day, and again, &c. you'll never forget them.

Cool. I'll look up resources to learn to read and write hiragana first. Do you recommend writing it out on a piece of paper as opposed to on a smartphone? I would think the former is better.

find a textbook. my university classes use nakama, but that book is really set up with the assumption you are taking a class with a teacher. a lot of people like genki and youkoso for self-study, but i haven't tried those myself.

I was debating on whether or not I should buy Genki 1. The problem is they don't teach you Kanji. There is a romaji/English version but I've heard it's not good for you, which makes sense.

really the best thing you can do is: find a native speaker and talk to them. obviously you won't be able to do this until you've been working at the basics for a bit.

Yes. The very first thing I did (many, many months ago) was go on a tandem language learning site. I met a bunch of Japanese people. BUT...it didn't work out with any of them. Mainly because, like you said, I needed the basics, which I didn't have.

I know one resource isn't going to cut it, and I'm perfectly happy with that. That's why I'm trying to get my hands on as many resources as possible. And choose a few and stick with them.

Actually, my girlfriend was born and raised in Japan. I've been seeing her for over a year and she always talks to me in English. She is incredibly patient but I know she secretly wishes I would learn a little bit of Japanese. She has taught me a few words but nothing consistently, so I always end up forgetting everything.

I'm finally going to stick with it and really learn the basics and start to have conversations with her in Japanese. I already told her and she loved the idea.

I'm hoping I can take a break from everything and go teach for a couple of years in Japan with my girl.

Anyway, thank you for all your feedback, @clouds!

Kana drills is the best App for keeping it in your head, it's a multiple choice setup but if you cover up the options with yer thumb it works better. However writing Kana is a different deal and it won't help you do that.

I'm on holiday in Japan as I type and even though I've only got six months of decent study under my belt, I'm enjoying the challenge.