are sex tourists generally more or less worldly/cultured than normal perverts?
― Mordy , Wednesday, 20 November 2013 20:38 (ten years ago) link
More like c21m50n53x460n
― polyphonic, Wednesday, 20 November 2013 20:39 (ten years ago) link
Probably 16% more
― 乒乓, Wednesday, 20 November 2013 20:40 (ten years ago) link
If it's good enough for Eric Schmidt, it's good enough for c21m50nh3x460n.
― c21m50nh3x460n, Wednesday, 20 November 2013 20:57 (ten years ago) link
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2014/9/14/1410690553896/Matthew-Miller-sitting-in-009.jpg
North Korea has sentenced an American citizen to six years of hard labour for entering the country illegally and committing "hostile acts" against the secretive state.State media said Matthew Miller had been convicted after a brief court hearing on Sunday morning. The court refused him permission to appeal.Miller, 24, from Bakersfield, California, reportedly ripped up his tourist visa on arrival at Pyongyang airport on 10 April, claiming he wanted to seek asylum.Prosecutors said Miller had falsely claimed to have secret information about the US military in South Korea on his iPad and iPod.A photo released by the official Korean Central News Agency showed a pale-looking Miller, dressed in black, standing in the dock flanked by guards.
State media said Matthew Miller had been convicted after a brief court hearing on Sunday morning. The court refused him permission to appeal.
Miller, 24, from Bakersfield, California, reportedly ripped up his tourist visa on arrival at Pyongyang airport on 10 April, claiming he wanted to seek asylum.
Prosecutors said Miller had falsely claimed to have secret information about the US military in South Korea on his iPad and iPod.
A photo released by the official Korean Central News Agency showed a pale-looking Miller, dressed in black, standing in the dock flanked by guards.
I am guessing this young man assumed he would have defector célèbre status and get a nice flat in Pyongyang and a nice easy lord haw haw type propaganda job for life, bad decision kid.
― xelab, Sunday, 14 September 2014 20:19 (nine years ago) link
still not a good idea
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/18/opinions/american-student-hard-labor-north-korea-cevallos/index.html
― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Sunday, 20 March 2016 03:12 (eight years ago) link
OK yeah I'm smh at this kid bcs, he obviously had the wherewithal and connections to get to NK to start with, so he should have had every fucking clue that you just DONT DO THAT SHIT.
But as an aside, WTF is with that CNN article? It reads like something from the Onion.
― Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Sunday, 20 March 2016 04:30 (eight years ago) link
this could have been any of us imo.
― Treeship, Sunday, 20 March 2016 06:18 (eight years ago) link
like, i have never been to a country that was anything like the dprk but i have gotten blackout drunk in moscow before. that wasn't very intelligent.
There are probably about 3m people getting blackout drunk in Moscow each weekend. I am trying not to be unsympathetic but pretty much the only reason anyone seems to go to the DPRK is to gawk at a brutal, arbitrarily cruel dictatorship insulated by the privilege of being foreign and able to go home at the end of it. The regime not taking that privilege as seriously as you expected is pretty much on you. However, I strongly suspect he will be treated much better than most prisoners and released in a show of grand generosity within months of not weeks. Tourist $$$ are too important to make this anything other than a show.
― On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Sunday, 20 March 2016 08:01 (eight years ago) link
wherewithal and connections to get to NK
pay for a flight to beijing and you can take a north korea tour for under a thousand bucks.
tree, i hope you're wrong. it's a brutal country, engaged in some horrifying treatment of its own citizens and getting down with the biggest villains around the world. they give foreign passport holders a lot of leeway for doing stupid shit on their tours of a country being smashed and strangled by military dictatorship. if you're misguided enough to break the list of rules you've been given and you pull down a propaganda banner, go fuck yourself. the kid is not doing fifteen years of hard labour anyways. he'll come out in a few months, a little skinnier, wearing the same blazer and write 3000 words for buzzfeed.
― dylannn, Sunday, 20 March 2016 11:31 (eight years ago) link
OK yeah I'm smh at this kid bcs, he obviously had the wherewithal and connections to get to NK to start with, so he should have had every fucking clue that you just DONT DO THAT SHIT.But as an aside, WTF is with that CNN article? It reads like something from the Onion.― Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Sunday, March 20, 2016 12:30 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Sunday, March 20, 2016 12:30 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
wait are ppl just taking North Korea at their word or
― ejemplo (crüt), Tuesday, 22 March 2016 17:21 (eight years ago) link
you're saying it's a set up?
― dylannn, Tuesday, 22 March 2016 18:00 (eight years ago) link
with faked cctv footage, even. of course it's a ridiculous charge + clearly it fits the international pr goals of the dprk. but a lot of americans go through pyongyang and it's seemed to attract some fuckups--not counting the religious and political activists--who do things it's hard for the minders to overlook. even the kid that ripped up his travel documents and ranted in the airport that he had secret military documents was back in the states in months, despite a sentence of six years hard labour.
― dylannn, Tuesday, 22 March 2016 18:01 (eight years ago) link
obviously a dumb move if true but I'm kind of bummed at the amount of schadenfreude I'm seeing from friends on FB and such.
― human life won't become a cat (man alive), Tuesday, 22 March 2016 18:19 (eight years ago) link
I want to add my post wasnt meant to sound like "he got what he desrved" at all, just expressing shock he didnt think it'd land him in trouble.
Unless we're now meant to think he did nothing and NK are making it all up. OK. Do they do that?
― Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Tuesday, 22 March 2016 23:18 (eight years ago) link
i've read ppl say things like, "fuck this privileged white college kid" or "millennials are worthless fuckups." i oppose that attitude.
― Treeship, Wednesday, 23 March 2016 00:28 (eight years ago) link
I just read Guy Deslisle's Pyongyang and have been reading a lot abt dprk in general and any sort of mild intrigue abt it (I guess based a lot on knowing so little abt it) has been replaced w/ a lot of sadness and terror! Like this place isn't a joke. Why do ppl think NK is like goofy and funny and maybe only mildly scary but not legitimately threatening?
― sexy dander (Stevie D(eux)), Wednesday, 23 March 2016 00:34 (eight years ago) link
Unless we're now meant to think he did nothing and NK are making it all up. OK. Do they do that?― Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:18 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:18 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
well, considering what else this regime has done, i would hardly put it past them.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Wednesday, 23 March 2016 01:18 (eight years ago) link
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4cnj4w/i_was_imprisoned_for_10_years_in_a_north_korean/
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 31 March 2016 17:24 (eight years ago) link
so maybe in 5 years the current regime will cease to exist
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 31 March 2016 17:34 (eight years ago) link
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/16/plastered-pyongyang-north-korea-launches-first-beer-festival?CMP=edit_2221
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 16 August 2016 18:14 (seven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyqUw0WYwoc
― F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 6 December 2016 05:14 (seven years ago) link
if you're misguided enough to break the list of rules you've been given and you pull down a propaganda banner, go fuck yourself. the kid is not doing fifteen years of hard labour anyways. he'll come out in a few months, a little skinnier, wearing the same blazer and write 3000 words for buzzfeed.
Otto Warmbier has severe brain injury and is unresponsive
― groovemaaan, Friday, 16 June 2017 05:17 (seven years ago) link
JFC
― El Tomboto, Friday, 16 June 2017 05:44 (seven years ago) link
Also it would appear the Graun has been hacked by trashy fake AV scammers?
― El Tomboto, Friday, 16 June 2017 05:45 (seven years ago) link
i stand by my statement on otto warmbier. stay out of north korea.
― dylannn, Friday, 16 June 2017 08:52 (seven years ago) link
How can you stand by it when it's clear he's come out of it a little more seriously affected than being " a little skinnier" and is not going to be "writing 3000 words for buzzfeed" any time soon?
― heaven parker (anagram), Friday, 16 June 2017 10:07 (seven years ago) link
there was no mention of weight gain in any of the reports i saw.
― dylannn, Friday, 16 June 2017 10:42 (seven years ago) link
i feel bad for the kid and nobody deserves to slip into a coma in a north korean prison. having spent a shorter time in detention in china... like, i can still only imagine what nk-style detention for an american citizen is like. he was a fuckup but i wished him the best! he wasn't going to serve that sentence and he probably would have got out with a minimal physical trauma and a good story, worth a media tour that might have brought attention to the millions suffering in north korea.
― dylannn, Friday, 16 June 2017 11:26 (seven years ago) link
going to tear down some propaganda banners here in dalian tonight in sympathy.
― dylannn, Friday, 16 June 2017 11:29 (seven years ago) link
shit happens eh
― groovemaaan, Friday, 16 June 2017 12:40 (seven years ago) link
wtf
― Mordy, Friday, 16 June 2017 15:17 (seven years ago) link
Otto Warmbier has died
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, 19 June 2017 20:37 (seven years ago) link
imagine a world if you will
where a regular dumb ass doesn't commit crimes against a gov't
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, 19 June 2017 20:48 (seven years ago) link
dude acted the dumbass but jesus he has paid the ultimate price for it.
also seems sort of weird that an american citizen was brutalized to death by a foreign government for an act of vandalism. if someone on fox points out how cucked this makes donald trump we could have a war on our hands.
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, 19 June 2017 20:51 (seven years ago) link
also seems sort of weird that an american citizen was brutalized to death by a foreign government for an act of vandalism.
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, June 19, 2017 1:51 PM (four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this is not weird
as if nk doesn't have a history of draconian laws
hard labour is a common punishment within nk
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, 19 June 2017 20:56 (seven years ago) link
well when was the last time you remember a u.s. prisoner in a foreign country dying as a result of their treatment?
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, 19 June 2017 20:59 (seven years ago) link
the foolishness of warmbier's behavior is entirely irrelevant. people should not lose their lives for damaging property.
― Treeship, Monday, 19 June 2017 20:59 (seven years ago) link
like, it's revolting to bring that up. it's like blaming any other victim of violence.
― Treeship, Monday, 19 June 2017 21:00 (seven years ago) link
well, not bring that up, but focus on it, as people here did
xp
you seem to be under the impression that americans somehow deserve special treatment
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, 19 June 2017 21:00 (seven years ago) link
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, June 19, 2017 2:00 PM (twenty-eight seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
you're either being facetious or stupid
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, 19 June 2017 21:01 (seven years ago) link
Still standing by your previous post, dylann?
― heaven parker (anagram), Monday, 19 June 2017 21:02 (seven years ago) link
you go into a country
they tell you do not do a list of things or you will be punished with the utmost severity
you do it anyway
a tragedy yes
but what do you expect
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, 19 June 2017 21:04 (seven years ago) link
https://startrekreview.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/wesley-justice.jpg
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Monday, 19 June 2017 21:06 (seven years ago) link
xp how are you so certain that he did it?
― Gaspard de la Nuit: III. ScarJost (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 19 June 2017 21:09 (seven years ago) link
i never said i was "so certain" but north korea doesn't sentence random americans who committed no crime under nk law to hard labour
look dude if you follow the rules, north korea is safe unless you are a north korean refugee or once held north (or to lesser degree south) korean passport
the way the north korean gov't treated him was still horrible and they are making an example of him because he is american, but why in the world would you risk it? would it have been so difficult to follow the rules that you are told entering a foreign country where you have no rights?
if you're interested there are pieces written by north korean scholars out there where you can get a balanced perspective
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Monday, 19 June 2017 21:23 (seven years ago) link
I don't think it's acceptable to visit nk as a tourist for a lot of reasons more serious than the necessary arrogance and sense of privilege. But it is staggering to hear people react to this with a "meh, should have known better".
Without meaning to put words in your mouth infinity, I can sort of see where you are coming from in the sense of going to nk not being a joke / don't treat it flippantly. In the context of being a dumb 21 year old kid though, don't you empathize at all with his actions? 100% agree with the post earlier in the thread in that it could have been me in another life.
― Kozelek, Monday, 19 June 2017 21:43 (seven years ago) link
I would definitely be interested if you have links btw
― Kozelek, Monday, 19 June 2017 21:48 (seven years ago) link
What, like his parents
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:19 (seven years ago) link
i think people should be free to state their positions and defend them when other people call them crazy... nobody here knows otto warmbier
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:20 (seven years ago) link
xxxxpost yeah that's not what the doctors are saying like, at all:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/06/14/what-botulism-comatose-u-s-college-student-otto-warmbier-released-north-korea/395354001/
― Charles "Butt" Stanton (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:20 (seven years ago) link
obviously they can't say for sure it wasn't botulism but they're not saying "it might be, it might not be", they're casting significant doubt on whether it happened and are saying even if he did have it, it's unlikely it'd cause a coma
― Charles "Butt" Stanton (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:21 (seven years ago) link
someone can be legitimately upset about an event that involves somebody they don't know, I know that might be *shocking*
anyway so far we've got
1. another drunk american tourist who cares2. a 21 year old who visits north korea should not be surprised if he winds up dead
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:21 (seven years ago) link
xpost in fact, that very thing happened in the Manitoba bus decapitation thread mentioned upthread.
― Charles "Butt" Stanton (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:22 (seven years ago) link
Can you explain why you disagree with 2? (I disagree with 1.)
― grawlix (unperson), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:24 (seven years ago) link
it's not difficult, you're just invested in your own sense of personal responsibility & project it onto others, who you deem stupid for not behaving as you do. people who judge their own behaviour harshly might feel entitled to do it to other people. it's always the powerful which can't help itself, and however absurd the laws are, they are never portrayed as a provocation.
― ogmor, Monday, June 19, 2017 6:25 PM (forty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
it's common sense for a country's gov't to expect a visitor to obey their laws. this isn't something unique to north korea
with regard to my personal responsibility, in fact, i do have a sense to at least try to view north korea and its relationship to other countries objectively, because i have probably met over a dozen people who are either from north korea, visited north korea, and have a good friend whose family escaped north korea
i'll say it again, warmbier's death is a tragedy and the north korean gov't *is* a despicable regime, but the way north korea in general is portrayed in western media is irresponsible
― i n f i n i t y (∞), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:25 (seven years ago) link
I cosign pretty much all of that
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:27 (seven years ago) link
― grawlix (unperson), Monday, June 19, 2017 10:24 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark
because his case is obviously extreme, even within the strict context of american tourists detained in north korea
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:28 (seven years ago) link
None of the doctors quoted in that USA Today article have examined the guy or have any connection to the case btw ...?
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:28 (seven years ago) link
I'm not claiming the botulism story is particularly credible by the way -- but it's a weird lie to tell
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:29 (seven years ago) link
'we killed him through avoidable food poisoning, neglecting to notice his airways were paralysed, and making things worse by administering inappropriate treatment' -- this is not a narrative which makes NK treatment of prisoners look good
― the ghost of tom, choad (thomp), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 02:36 (seven years ago) link
thinking about this more if you had asked me a month or go or something about this i would've agreed that any american tourist going to north korea should be aware of the fact that there's a very small chance that you do something seemingly innocuous there and up detained
but i have to get off the bus when that logic extends to you shouldn't be surprised if you end up in a coma with your condition hidden from the govt and your family for 1 year at which point you are suddenly returned and then you die 1 week later
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 20 June 2017 03:12 (seven years ago) link
it's common sense for a country's gov't to expect a visitor to obey their laws.
I'd say it's common sense for a govt to expect that sometimes foreign visitors will break the law, especially if you're running an exceptionally repressive regime. I don't think it serves any purpose to normalise or accept this sort of brutality, pointing out that it's easy to acquiesce to tyrants isn't much of a contribution
― ogmor, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 09:01 (seven years ago) link
Irrespective of what obligations individuals have in North Korea, North Korea has international obligations to a) not torture detainees and b) allow consular access.
― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 09:07 (seven years ago) link
i wished him the best.
at the time i wrote the original post, no american had spent more than a year in detention in north korea, except kenneth bae. there was a pattern: american was held and an envoy was dispatched to have them returned. clinton brought back laura ling and euna lee (sentenced to 12 years, entered north korea illegally from china) and they wrote books, painting themselves as human rights heroes. jimmy carter brought back aijalon gomes (sentenced to 8 years, entered north korea illegally from china), and he wrote a book, too! and robert park, who went to the same church as gomes went over, too, and he got out after less than two months. kenneth bae stayed in the longest. but things were complicated by the situation at the time and the fact that he was openly engaged in a longterm operation to attack the government in the dprk, having set up operations in yanji in china to conduct cross border activities. but even he made it out. he thanked dennis rodman and wrote a book.
north korea has abducted and tortured foreign citizens but the majority of americans make it out okay! so... i was playing the odds.
― dylannn, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 13:13 (seven years ago) link
i will say that... the majority of americans detained in north korea were hostile to the north korean government and engaged in activities intended to destabilize the north korean government. i'd encourage everyone to read about the detainees that went before warmbier. they were not innocents that stumbled into north korea and were then framed for their crimes. their treatment was disgusting and they faced trumped up charges for questionable charges--but most of them admitted to committing crimes in north korea. the other three americans detained in north korea now have a history with missionary groups (two worked for at pyongyang university of science and tech, a collaboration with a south korean non-profit group funded by american evangelical money and one had a history of missionary activities and links to evangelical groups operating out of yanji).
i don't think warmbier was an exception (except in being a clean cut white american kid and the media caring about his family crying on tv). he's part of a religious movement that has sent its people over and over again to north korea to fuck with the government there.
― dylannn, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 13:41 (seven years ago) link
i think a travel ban like "the north korea travel control act" would have trouble stopping the problem, as american tourists have mostly been chill and missionaries will just cross from china illegally or sneak in with humanitarian groups, which would probably cover working at PUST.
it sounds like the u.s. state department has difficulty keeping the lines of communication open and doesn't have much credibility with the dprk. joseph yun the special rep for nk policy met with north koreans in secret to secure visits with americans detained. even if dennis rodman is the face of informal contact with north korea, it seems like there must be a number of americans doing good things in the country (lots of off-the-radar humanitarian activity), so it probably wouldn't be a good idea to try to cut the u.s. off from north korea even more. i don't think concerns over being a source of hard currency and legitimacy make sense, when the chinese and russians are in pyongyang. second, stop antagonizing china.
― dylannn, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 14:18 (seven years ago) link
like dylann said, visiting NK as an american is playing the odds, doing so with the intention of being even tangentially involved in subversive activities is another, and you're always hedging against the unknowable -- you having some medical emergency, a sudden change in diplomatic relations, any number of things that would be a distant thought if you were traveling to somewhere familiar
so this was an hell of an outlier compared to what we've seen previously, but there's no indication that NK is jailing people more aggressively that we've previously seen, it's unclear why Wambier was in that condition, and the only new information is that NK's reticence to talk about people they have jailed extends to americans in comas
― mh, Tuesday, 20 June 2017 14:36 (seven years ago) link
americans in comas
🎵i know, i know, it's really serious🎵
― total eclipse of the beefheart (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 20 June 2017 15:49 (seven years ago) link
interesting writing post-warmbier:
"dangerous exploits: otto warmbier and the risks of travel to north korea," craig s. smith: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/insider/dangerous-exploits-otto-warmbier-and-the-risks-of-travel-to-north-korea.html
chinese state media on warmbier/trump's nk policy: China has made the utmost efforts to help break the stalemate in the North Korean nuclear issue. But by no means will China, nor will Chinese society permit it to, act as a "US ally" in pressuring North Korea. If Washington decides to impose third-party sanctions on several Chinese enterprises, it will lead to grave friction between China and the US over the Korean Peninsula issue. http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1052689.shtml
http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21723779-travel-ban-american-citizens-north-korea-may-be-offing-outrageous-death-otto
from piie: https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/people-people-engagement-north-korea - a study of the surprising amount of people-to-people engagement in north korea / https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/warmbier-and-rodman stephan haggard on travel ban/rodman diplomacy / https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/challenges-engagement I am sympathetic with Moon Jae-in’s effort to recalibrate North-South relations. But I am also glad to see that he is standing on principle and that hastily conceived efforts such as summit celebrations in Pyongyang (link is external) were canceled rather than rushed. / https://piie.com/blogs/north-korea-witness-transformation/more-us-sanctions-how-far-should-we-go
more on sanctions, us-dprk relations: http://sinonk.com/2017/06/19/a-roundtable-review-of-van-jacksons-rival-reputations-coercion-and-credibility-in-u-s-north-korea-relations/ For Jackson, the persistent militarized rivalry that causes recurrent but contained crises on the peninsula is produced and reproduced by the choices of US officials. By backing down in successive crises, the United States invites future provocations by signaling that it is unwilling to fight a general war over small skirmishes or continued advancement of the DPRK nuclear and missile programs. At the same time, these decisions have enhanced the credibility of US threats when they are issued, which deters broader conflict. As reputation is often deployed to argue that the United States is weak, it is a refreshingly nuanced diagnosis.
nate thayer on phoenix air, contractor that flew to pick up warmbier: http://www.nate-thayer.com/did-north-korea-poison-u-s-prisoner-otto-warmbier-with-botulism/
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/stories/otto-warmbiers-release-reminder-brutality-north-korean-labor-camps/ Start with China. One of the major barriers to intervention in North Korea is China’s protection of the country. Pray God would raise up leaders in China willing to take a stand for religious freedom and human rights. Pray China would open its borders to North Korean refugees rather than sending them back.
― dylannn, Friday, 23 June 2017 04:09 (seven years ago) link
Family declined an autopsy,
― Three Word Username, Friday, 23 June 2017 07:05 (seven years ago) link
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/238505/otto-warmbiers-jewish-faith-was-kept-under-wraps-during-north-korea-detainment-scroll
― Mordy, Sunday, 25 June 2017 17:01 (seven years ago) link
Bergman, a Warmbier family spokesman, appears to have advised the family to keep his Jewish identity under wraps because it would undercut North Korea’s alibi, which involved a church, for sentencing Warmbier to 15 years of hard labor for attempting to steal a propaganda poster, the video evidence of which is grainy.
― Mordy, Sunday, 25 June 2017 17:07 (seven years ago) link