How would you compare Russia's relationship to Crimea w/ its relationship to South Ossetia? xp
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 15:57 (ten years ago) link
or 'this one time in college i read a book'
― balls, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:09 (ten years ago) link
The Ukrainian government is still calling this an 'occupation' but has largely stopped claiming that they are Russian troops, as far as i can tell. The difference between troops loyal to Russia ("controlled from the Kremlin" or otherwise) and actual serving Russian soldiers is fairly important.
Russia has said that it has increased troop activity in the area - euphemistically called "anti-terrorist" security efforts, which is where the port-access blockade allegations come in, but hasn't claimed responsibility for taking the airports.
South Ossetia is what i was thinking of when i said that Russia might intervene if there was an attack but probably wouldn't make the first military move. The situation isn't quite the same yet, though. Crimea, although, an autonomous Republic, is officially recognised by Russia as part of Ukraine at the moment but South Ossetia is mostly viewed as an independent territory.
― Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Friday, 28 February 2014 16:13 (ten years ago) link
And I don't think he's misinterpreting something I said or confusing me with someone else; he's just making shit up.
x.post http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russian-troops-take-over-airports-in-crimea/2014/02/28/659fbec0-a082-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html
― Three Word Username, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:14 (ten years ago) link
SV OTM (not going to check this thread again for a while if 'unpleasantness' continues)
― The Whittrick and Puddock (dowd), Friday, 28 February 2014 16:14 (ten years ago) link
Post story indicates journalists have been threatened for approaching, has one of the uniformed men calling himself a member of the Black Sea Fleet, describes a Russian officer approaching the uniformed men, who acted as if he were in command.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:19 (ten years ago) link
xpost
Yeah, SV I always appreciate your clarity and contributions to threads like this.
― Ward Fowler, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:21 (ten years ago) link
Credit where credit is due: SV writes very clearly and puts a lot of thought into what he says here, but he appears to me to have an agenda and the constant "otm"s bug me.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:23 (ten years ago) link
It doesn't look like SV is parroting the Russian line here at all, wtf?
― Matt DC, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:27 (ten years ago) link
I didn't say the Kremlin line or the Putin line -- I said the moderate Russian line.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:28 (ten years ago) link
I might be reading that wrong but it looks like the Post is referring to the men at the airport as "mysterious", not as Russian troops. The Black Sea Fleet guys are part of a separate incident in Balaklava. The officer at the airport is described as "appearing Russian" so presumably not in uniform.
The Ukrainian security minister has repeatedly said that the airport guys are "controlled" or "commanded" by Moscow but not that they are Russian soldiers.
I have no great agenda. I love Ukraine, i love Russia. My sympathies are with the people of both countries and i have little time for their leaders or political structures. They're all a bunch of criminals. Bad reporting and hyperbole about the stuff they get up to makes it harder to critique their crimes with any clarity.
― Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Friday, 28 February 2014 16:32 (ten years ago) link
I'm not a huge fan of the people of Ukraine, tbph. It's hard for me to separate out the country's historical right-wing violence against minorities from the current situation.
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 16:35 (ten years ago) link
really?
― conrad, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:35 (ten years ago) link
Well, my family lived in Ukraine before they immigrated to North America so you can probably draw your own conclusions there.
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 16:36 (ten years ago) link
yes i can
― conrad, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:37 (ten years ago) link
That's where many of my family came from too, but like a hundred years ago. Its hard for me to hold a grudge that long.especially since a lot of the blame falls on the czars.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:38 (ten years ago) link
"the cossacks work for the czar" as they say
― goole, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:39 (ten years ago) link
x-post: I think the Post is not making the judgement, but is leaning toward their being soldiers, contrasting them in appearance, behavior, and armament to pro-Russian local militias. They are in uniform, according to the article, but in a uniform without insignia.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 28 February 2014 16:41 (ten years ago) link
it's my understanding that most of that violence was committed by Ukrainian civilians against their neighbors, and moreover from speaking to Jewish family I still have in Ukraine (very, very, very little, understandably - my family's historical town as far as I've been able to research has been totally obliterated) it has never gone away. cf http://www.chabad.org/blogs/blog_cdo/aid/2502442/jewish/Chabad-Center-in-Ukraine-Firebombed-Amid-Ongoing-Violence.htm and http://gawker.com/are-ukraines-jews-screwed-1532453920
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 16:42 (ten years ago) link
I have a similarly vexed relationship with Poland because of the way my Jewish relatives were treated before, during and after the war. Not that I hold it against any of the Poles I've met.
― What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Friday, 28 February 2014 17:37 (ten years ago) link
Ha, my wife just the other day told me about a radio story she heard talking about dwindling anti-Semitism in Poland, and I was immediately pretty much, yeah, no way in hell is that happening. Indeed, there was a study just last year or so that showed a drop of, like, 2%, from 65% to 63% or something, of firmly held anti-Semitic beliefs along the lines of blood libel, using Christian blood in ceremonies, etc. And this in a country that went from 3 million Jews to less than 10,000, currently. One theory is that anti-Semitism is so ingrained that people don't even think of it as anti-Semitism. Doesn't stop them from defacing Jewish cemeteries, though.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 28 February 2014 17:46 (ten years ago) link
(Definitely belongs in the anti-Semitism thread, sorry. I'll repost there)
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 28 February 2014 17:47 (ten years ago) link
my wife's family left the Ukraine for the US in the 1980s. They've recently stopped shopping at the Russian markets because the more recent non-Jewish Ukrainian immigrants there are always making anti-Semitic comments.
― I got the glares, the mutterings, the snarls (President Keyes), Friday, 28 February 2014 17:51 (ten years ago) link
http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2014-02-28-riabchuk-en.html
― Three Word Username, Friday, 28 February 2014 18:22 (ten years ago) link
huge fan of the people of Ukraine here, got all their stuff
― am0n, Friday, 28 February 2014 18:30 (ten years ago) link
three word userkraine
― Ward Fowler, Friday, 28 February 2014 18:45 (ten years ago) link
Ukraine has started to get a lot of Jewish tourists now - mostly organised tours to pilgrimage sites around Cherkassy / Uman but lots to Odessa too. Not sure about Lviv but it would be a shame if it didn't, given how strongly associated the city is with Jewish history.
― Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Friday, 28 February 2014 18:50 (ten years ago) link
I have glibly remarked in the past that I would not visit anywhere in Europe east of Italy but I'd love to go to Odessa one day y bc Babelstan.
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 18:52 (ten years ago) link
You should! It's a great city and very chill. Possibly because it has always had such an international outlook it's one of the most laid back, friendly places I have ever been. I do not think you should have any problems.
― Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Friday, 28 February 2014 19:02 (ten years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVyPiHVZ1A&feature=youtu.be
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 20:18 (ten years ago) link
I have glibly remarked in the past that I would not visit anywhere in Europe east of Italy
this is ridiculous
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 February 2014 20:20 (ten years ago) link
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10668357/Russia-admits-that-it-has-moved-troops-in-Ukraine.html
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 20:21 (ten years ago) link
u're right. i'd also visit finland. xp
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 20:22 (ten years ago) link
I was in Russia, Czechoslovakia and Hungary right after the wall came down, I never ran into any anti-semitism. which is not to say it doesn't exist, and is not to say that I was advertising my Jewishness in any particular way that would have invited it, but there are plenty of great places/people in that area of the world, not visiting them because of historically shitty things that have happened seems I dunno sort of small-minded.
xxxp
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 February 2014 20:22 (ten years ago) link
not visiting them because of historically shitty things that have happened seems I dunno sort of small-minded.
really? this isn't like ancient history. it's current and very recent history.
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 20:23 (ten years ago) link
would you find it small-minded if a black person said they would never visit the states of the confederacy?
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 20:24 (ten years ago) link
anyway, i said glibly bc obv i didn't mean it w/ any seriousness. that said, i've never visited any of those countries (i almost went to kosavo a couple years ago for a conference but it didn't work out). if someone bought me a plane ticket to Krakow tho i wouldn't refuse it.
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 20:26 (ten years ago) link
http://www.jta.org/2014/02/28/news-opinion/world/in-kiev-an-israeli-militia-commander-fights-in-the-streets-and-saves-lives
^ this is amazing
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 20:36 (ten years ago) link
― Mordy , 28. februar 2014 21:24 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I don't think this is the same, when you imply that you would go to Italy? Also, what about the countries to the north?
― Frederik B, Friday, 28 February 2014 20:48 (ten years ago) link
let's say my statement applies specifically to the following countries:Germany, Austria, Czech, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 20:51 (ten years ago) link
Well, then that makes it more the same. And I can definitely understand that.
― Frederik B, Friday, 28 February 2014 20:54 (ten years ago) link
i heard obama is speaking at 4:45 about ukraine sitch
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 21:35 (ten years ago) link
https://twitter.com/edwardlucas/status/439499082617597953
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 21:38 (ten years ago) link
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280502.html
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 21:40 (ten years ago) link
obama speaking now - "the Ukrainian people deserve the opportunity to determine their future"
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 22:06 (ten years ago) link
obv US is not going to do shit to stop any potential annexation (assuming that's what is going on here) - just happy obama didn't make any unenforceable red lines during his speech
― Mordy , Friday, 28 February 2014 22:27 (ten years ago) link
so is the us going to war with russia over this or what
― Daniel, Esq 2, Saturday, 1 March 2014 00:54 (ten years ago) link
no way
― Mordy , Saturday, 1 March 2014 00:55 (ten years ago) link
A boykot? Apparantly the Russian economy is pretty close to a shambles, and spring is here, so who needs Russian gas anyway.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 1 March 2014 01:13 (ten years ago) link
Though to be honest, if someone put me on the spot, I'd be hard pressed to answer why the people of Crimea shouldn't be allowed to hold a referendum on their future status. If it was a free and fair referendum, obviously, which there's no chance it would be.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 1 March 2014 01:15 (ten years ago) link