dowd, do you believe your experiences with God despite the holy books would have been the same if you had absolutely no knowledge of that religion in the first place?
No, I don't. It would certainly seem that such experiences are culturally informed to some degree. The problem is trying to separate the nature of the thing viewed from the nature of the eye.
― The Whittrick and Puddock (dowd), Thursday, 6 March 2014 13:31 (ten years ago) link
I'm not dowd and i'm an atheist, but my parents are devout catholics and i know them pretty well so i think i might know a little about this stuff. For them, the investment in the idea of the Church -- if not always the actual, functioning church though theyre pretty stoked about pope francis -- is at least as big of a thing as the idea of God or the afterlife. It provides a sense of connection with their childhood, with their deceased parents, etc. I don't think they ever wanted to *be* anything other than Catholic, despite the detours their own thinking might have taken. Theyre more pragmatic than intellectual though, and it is maddening to me how easily they can reconcile awful positions the Church takes with their own feelings, or how they just don't think it's their place to question whether god is real when "great thinkers" have been deists, but whatever. Skepticism isn't a personality trait everyone has and theyre good people. Granny's attitude is just annoying to me.
So yeah, lots of issues of identity tied up in religious belief. It's not just or even mostly about personal experiences of God, I don't think, at least not for certain kinds of Catholics.
― Treeship, Thursday, 6 March 2014 13:44 (ten years ago) link
Sorry xp. On my iphone i dont get the warning message that others have posted while i was writing my post.
"Skepticism isn't a personality trait everyone has and theyre good people. Granny's attitude is just annoying to me."
are these sentences supposed to be related?
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 13:46 (ten years ago) link
You were attacking people's defensiveness over spiritual beliefs that sometimes seem half-formed or half-believed. I was trying to describe why some people are like that, and one answer might be that intellectual consistency isnt the most impt thing to them.
― Treeship, Thursday, 6 March 2014 13:52 (ten years ago) link
so they're not related, cool
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 13:52 (ten years ago) link
totally makes sense for someone for whom intell cnstncy isn't important to get defensive when someone criticizes their belief for not having intell constncy, why couldn't I see that
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 13:54 (ten years ago) link
People get defensive when they're criticized in general and more so when they're ridiculed. So it makes sense, yeah.
― Treeship, Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:03 (ten years ago) link
that isn't what you said.then they shouldn't hold ridiculous beliefs. y'know, like those nutso chemtrail or moon conspiracy people.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:10 (ten years ago) link
i mean i would hope that it isn't important to them! that'd be double pathetic.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:12 (ten years ago) link
nope sorry misread you, that is what you said. I thought the "why they're like that" was referring to being defensive.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:13 (ten years ago) link
But if their framework for understanding themselves and the world is structured in religious terms, asking them to let go of the idea of God is a really tall order. Like this Jewish reading group in the cafe next to me right now: a bunch of old men discussing ethical issues, referencing different interpretations of different stories from the Torah. From where I am sitting, it seems like they're dwelling in a pretty interpretively rich context, with room for flexibility because they're arguing about stuff. It's not my framework, but i dont really think these dudes would be better off if they abandoned it. I dont even think they'd understand reality better by letting go of their God-term. Being "religious" doesn't mean your thinking is dogmatic and one dimensional; being an atheist doesn't mean your thinking is flexible and inquisitive.
― Treeship, Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:23 (ten years ago) link
Xp i did mean why they are defensive
― Treeship, Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:24 (ten years ago) link
I'm not asking them to let go of the idea of God, so don't ask me to let go of the idea of finding it ridiculous
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:25 (ten years ago) link
ok that makes no sense though. "my eye color is not important to me" "omg dude your eye color is dumb!" "FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE!!"
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:26 (ten years ago) link
I didn't ever say it wasn't important to them! I'm saying that faith can still be important to someone even if it isn't air- tight and certain, because many aspects of people's lived identity is tied up in their faith.
― Treeship, Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:28 (ten years ago) link
Like, it's not just or even primarily about metaphysical certainty for some people. It's a history, a community, and an ethical framework.
― Treeship, Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:29 (ten years ago) link
you said intellectual consistency wasn't important to them, but yet it's one answer to explain why they get defensive when their religious beliefs are ridiculed
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:30 (ten years ago) link
yes duh I fucking get it. that has nothing to do with me finding a belief in god ridiculous.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:31 (ten years ago) link
What's the benefit of ridiculing anyone ever?
― Treeship, Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:31 (ten years ago) link
"eh I can take or leave the whole god part, I dig the history, the community, the ethical framework"ok cool have fun at bingo
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:33 (ten years ago) link
what's the benefit of asking me what's the benefit of ridiculing anyone?
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:34 (ten years ago) link
the more religious belief is ridiculed, hopefully the less influence it has in the world. I think that's a good goal, thought you may disagree.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:36 (ten years ago) link
though, not thought
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:37 (ten years ago) link
if this tactic doesn't work, I have to resort to stonings and burnings, I'm just sayin
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 14:40 (ten years ago) link
Good idea, if you had been around in the 15th century you would've made a good witch hunter.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 6 March 2014 15:24 (ten years ago) link
Please elaborate more on your philosophy of intolerance and ridicule, it really sounds like a winner.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 6 March 2014 15:26 (ten years ago) link
those poor witches, riduculed at the steak! another great analogy, you intellectual giant
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 15:40 (ten years ago) link
i'm very tolerant. why did you feel the need to strengthen the case against me by throwing that in there?
sadly, my philosophy cannot compete with your ill thought out comparisons and nearly total lack of understanding of what science even is
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 15:42 (ten years ago) link
Please teach us, oh master.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 6 March 2014 15:44 (ten years ago) link
you're reduced to that tactic eh? why even post then
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 15:44 (ten years ago) link
One day I will pee farther than you.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 6 March 2014 15:45 (ten years ago) link
hey lookit this guy thinks he knows everything.no I just think you're an idiot.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 15:45 (ten years ago) link
Stfu everyone i'm trying to sleep
― james franco, Thursday, 6 March 2014 15:52 (ten years ago) link
Are you really sleeping, or do you just black out and fly around Manhattan terrorizing people?
― how's life, Thursday, 6 March 2014 15:56 (ten years ago) link
and Jesus said "Go forth and get thy fuckin' shinebox"
― Neanderthal, Thursday, 6 March 2014 16:58 (ten years ago) link
Unfortunately, reading Granny D's few dozen one-a-minute one-liners on this thread reminded me strongly of long ago ilxor Aaron Hertz during one of his manic episodes before he was permabanned. Get well, Granny D.
― Aimless, Thursday, 6 March 2014 19:19 (ten years ago) link
Ruffled Fedoras
― Evan, Thursday, 6 March 2014 19:32 (ten years ago) link
gd about to find out that there is a mod imo
― CSI BONO (darraghmac), Thursday, 6 March 2014 19:53 (ten years ago) link
haha yeah I'm the one with the mental condition here. You're a humorless twat, Aimless, fuck off holmes.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 21:31 (ten years ago) link
ILX is so fucking predictable and y'all so lame, years of amusement tho thanks for that
oh no a mod whatever shall I do who fucking cares
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 21:32 (ten years ago) link
oh shit was that 2 many 1 line posts too quickly OMG THE MANIA IT'S CONSUMING ME
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 21:36 (ten years ago) link
praying for u dog
― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 6 March 2014 21:39 (ten years ago) link
Ilx posters are good people, Granny. Honest, pious people. I won't have you speak about them like that.
― james franco, Thursday, 6 March 2014 21:44 (ten years ago) link
oh ok sorry, whew manic phase over now
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 21:46 (ten years ago) link
well, thank god! (joeks bro)
― Aimless, Thursday, 6 March 2014 22:11 (ten years ago) link
jk yall stll twathammers
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 6 March 2014 23:30 (ten years ago) link
You're a maniac.
― james franco, Thursday, 6 March 2014 23:47 (ten years ago) link