Trans/Genderqueer/Agender/Questioning Thread

The distinction between Drag and Trans is one of those thorny, knotted areas. They are two things that are not necessarily coming from the same place, and one group does not get to speak for the other group. I agree with Rev, that in terms of intersectionality, cis men who perform in drag occasionally are way up the fucking privilege hill from trans people who live their lives in danger 100% of the time, so they can STFU and find another word.

There's a long history of feminists Problematising Drag, and debating it. (This has contributed to the tension between Rad-Fems and trans people, due to a conflation of the problems of Drag with trans people.) It is not a settled question, by any means. Is Drag good, because it is queering gender, and smearing boundaries, and attacking heteronormative ideas of what it means to be female or male? Is Drag bad because it reinforces and perpetuates grotesque stereotypes of "femininity"? (Then again, can even "grotesque stereotypes", when used in a clever way, help to dismantle the gender binary? Maybe.) There have been some feminists who have argued that Drag in itself is the ~gender equivalent of Blackface~, and is therefore inherently offensive, even before bringing *actual* Blackface into it. (I don't agree, but I think they do raise interesting points that are worth addressing. "Problematising" does mean discussing the problems with, and whether they can be outweighed or resolved, *not* just outright "Condemning".)

But, still, Drag is not the same thing as being Trans at all, and when ~dudes who do drag~ try to speak for or indeed over Trans Women, I really think they need to take a seat.

'dick move' is a highly offensive sexist term btw

BTW, I mean, I don't necessarily agree that "drag is (necessarily) the gender equivalent of blackface". Actual blackface remains gross and offensive. Because this is ILX, I do feel I have to clarify that.

I saw a very insightful post somewhere else on the internet talking about how a lot of these debates break down to the intractable differences between "gay culture" incubated in gay bars and "queer culture" incubated in feminist spaces.

My blanket assumption in these cases (and certainly in this one in particular) is that gay male culture is always wrong.

― pugger pugger (benson) (The Reverend), Sunday, June 1, 2014 12:06 AM (8 hours ago)

If this is a post you can link to, as opposed to something that happened in passing on ILX, I would very much appreciate it if you could find it. Because this is basically the history of ~my problems and conflicts over sexuality and gender since the age of 15~ in a fucking nutshell. If I'd encountered "queer culture" as incubated in Feminist Spaces at the age of 15, instead of "gay culture" as incubated in gay bars, my life might have taken a very different shape. But I'm not even sure it had been invented at that point in the 80s.

I dunno; my thought is almost always... if a group of marginalised people have got together and said "hey, this usage is offensive, please could you think about your language" my response is not to stop using the term because "OMG people might get ~offended~" but because of what continuing to use that term would say about *me*. It's like announcing in 24 point bold comic sans "I am an insensitive douchebag who thinks my right to LOLs is more important than other people's right to feel safe in their own skin". If that's the message you wanna give out, then go ahead, but be aware you're sending it. And it's never about the *word*, it's about the knot of beliefs and prejudices that power the word. Both of the tools used (both 1. asking people to think about their language before throwing slurs around and 2. people of the in-group using that term in reclamation) are addressed at the concept-knot, rather than the word. Saying "oh, other people use it, so it's *fine* for me to go on using it wherever, whenever" is a blank refusal to even look at their own concept-knot. Which is a double dick move, as far as I'm concerned.

― Branwell with an N, Sunday, June 1, 2014 1:39 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This all otm, and honestly I've never cared for drag at all for a lot of reasons including the ones you decribe.

Subpost: Y'know, every time I pick up yet another yappy-headed little dude intent on chasing me creepily from thread to thread, hollering his little hate-crush at me, I realise that I am more and more fiiiiiine with it, if my language happens to represent me to them as a ~Misandrist~.

Rev, I have mixed feelings about Drag. It totally can be used in really interesting and thought-provoking and even just ~fun~ ways. I have learned a lot about gender and gender performance and the theatricality thereof, from Drag Queens. But it can also be just a repository for every lazy, bad stereotype about ~Femininity~. It's the cleverness of the performer, and the sensitivity of the audience that makes the difference. There's positive and negative renderings of Drag, there's positive and negative readings of Drag. It's complicated! But I think the conversation Drag raises is still one worth having.

Yeah, I feel that. It's just never appealed to me.

If this is a post you can link to, as opposed to something that happened in passing on ILX, I would very much appreciate it if you could find it. Because this is basically the history of ~my problems and conflicts over sexuality and gender since the age of 15~ in a fucking nutshell. If I'd encountered "queer culture" as incubated in Feminist Spaces at the age of 15, instead of "gay culture" as incubated in gay bars, my life might have taken a very different shape. But I'm not even sure it had been invented at that point in the 80s.

― Branwell with an N, Sunday, June 1, 2014 2:04 AM Bookmark

The reclamation of 'queer' didn't even start until 1990 or so although that doesn't necessarily mean the seeds of queer culture didn't already exist. It was an ACT-UP splinter group that was a big catalyst for that happening.

Oh god the comment was in *shudders* a comment section at The Stranger (prob in response to Dan Savage... hey, have I mentioned Dan Savage can go fuck himself? Dan Savage can go fuck himself... being a dick about this) lemme try to find it.

From here: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2014/05/28/justin-bond-on-rupaul-trannyshack-and-the-word-police

There's such a strange dichotomy between gay culture and queer culture. We don't talk to each other, share identities, occupy the same spaces, or even use the same vocabulary. Or when we do, like the word "queer", it means entirely different things. I've been completely baffled when I use the word "queer" and someone takes it to mean gay men. I don't know any queers who identify in any way as "tranny", "transsexual", or "drag king/queen", for example, and don't really understand those that do. We don't have the same cultural history -- gay male bar culture vs. feminist space culture.

We should absolutely understand and accept each other. But one of the groups obviously has more political and cultural power than the other -- you probably see entire TV series about gay culture more often than a single person who's part of queer culture in mainstream media. It's the responsibility of the group with more power to listen to and not hurt people in the less powerful group, if they don't want to be called out on it and lose cultural legitimacy.

Well I don't bother arguing/debating with you because you seem to be incapable to taking on any other view..

But you do exactly what you accused LJ of doing..."How can you possibly thinking I'm sexist, when I use sexist language like 'sausage party' and 'dick move'...and then carry on doing exactly that...

Terms like that are actually offensive to me..and I'd personally you rather didn't use them tbh

if a group of marginalised people have got together and said "hey, this usage is offensive, please could you think about your language" my response is not to stop using the term because "OMG people might get ~offended~" but because of what continuing to use that term would say about *me*.

I think an important aspect of this, in terms of the reactions and responses of people like Justin Bond and Annie Sprinkle, is that previously, for decades, they viewed themselves and trans people as part of the same marginalized community. Trannyshack has been around for almost 20 years, and people are now saying that the usage is offensive. And yes, language changes, and marginalized people have every right to think and re-think the language they want applied to them. However, there are plenty of people who are conservative about language, or just get set in their ways, whether it's appropriate terms for oppressed peoples or the oxford comma.

The day that you go and read a 101 and get it through your head what Sexism actually *is*, and what the word means with regards to societal power, is the day that I will engage you in conversation. Now go away with your little creepy crush and attempts to get me to pay attention to you and your derailments; grown-ups are talking.

Rev, I try to avoid Dan Savage for many many reasons, but I think that is a really good point, and one I'm going to try to look into further.

Well I don't bother arguing/debating with you because you seem to be incapable to taking on any other view..

But you do exactly what you accused LJ of doing..."How can you possibly thinking I'm sexist, when I use sexist language like 'sausage party' and 'dick move'...and then carry on doing exactly that...

Terms like that are actually offensive to me..and I'd personally you rather didn't use them tbh

― Sausage Party (Bob Six), Sunday, June 1, 2014 3:24 AM Bookmark

lololol "MISANDRY!" sit the fuck down dudebrah

It's not Savage who said that! Someone else in response to him.

I think an important aspect of this, in terms of the reactions and responses of people like Justin Bond and Annie Sprinkle, is that previously, for decades, they viewed themselves and trans people as part of the same marginalized community. Trannyshack has been around for almost 20 years, and people are now saying that the usage is offensive. And yes, language changes, and marginalized people have every right to think and re-think the language they want applied to them. However, there are plenty of people who are conservative about language, or just get set in their ways, whether it's appropriate terms for oppressed peoples or the oxford comma.

― sarahell, Sunday, June 1, 2014 3:24 AM Bookmark

Yeah, ime there's a ton of disconnect between different generations of LGBTQ people. A fair amount of older people under that umbrella abhor the word "queer" to this day but define themselves in terms the younger generation find passe or offensive. I just had a work meeting the other day (my day job is working with LGBTQ youth) where we discussed the possibility of abandoning the use of umbrella acronyms altogether because the teenagers we're trying to reach just simply aren't responding to that type of language.

yeah while queer is tossed or hurled around with great currency and intended positivity some people find it v offensive

Well I don't bother arguing/debating with you because you seem to be incapable to taking on any other view..

But you do exactly what you accused LJ of doing..."How can you possibly thinking I'm sexist, when I use sexist language like 'sausage party' and 'dick move'...and then carry on doing exactly that...

Terms like that are actually offensive to me..and I'd personally you rather didn't use them tbh

― Sausage Party (Bob Six), Sunday, June 1, 2014 3:24 AM Bookmark

lololol "MISANDRY!" sit the fuck down dudebrah

― pugger pugger (benson) (The Reverend), Sunday, June 1, 2014 5:37 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

looking for favorite button

rlv.zcache.com/chocolate_smiley_face_i_really_love_chocolate_button-rf2af6cd3bdaf45129626fdbe9fbcd20c_x7j3i_8byvr_512.jpg

http://s17.postimg.org/65vb30c5r/chocolate_smiley_face_i_really_love_chocolate_bu.jpg

It's not Savage who said that! Someone else in response to him.

― pugger pugger (benson) (The Reverend), Sunday, June 1, 2014 10:37 AM (4 hours ago)

Yeah, I know. But reading (albeit sound) comments threads about Savage generally requires paying attention to Savage, which is something i try to avoid.

Terms like that are actually offensive to me..and I'd personally you rather didn't use them tbh

― Sausage Party (Bob Six), Sunday, June 1, 2014 6:24 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol dude shut the fuck up

*Awed by the adult conversation*

Will watch and learn

it's always a good look to disrupt a thread with petty and infantile 'misandry' whines and then sit back with a patronizing Alfred E. Neuman grin on your face when you get called on it.

it is, quite possibly, a 'dick move' in fact

:D

Burning ears. Anyway, I've long accepted that petulantly attacking BB with the r-word in response to a not-unreasonable check-yr-ableism was a profound dick move, and regret it enough to ensure I never do such a classless thing again. Bob, you have no business picking fights on this of all threads, and neither do I, even if I look dashedly good in drag if I may say so myself (cis drag 'tourism' versus trans identity tho etc)

sistren and brethren, please

Imago, that was a thoroughly decent thing to say, and thank you.

The derail is tedious, because the things that Rev has been bringing up are really interesting, and particularly salient for me.

I'm just of the generation inbetween. ACT-UP was just slightly before my time, but still something I remember as a teenager. However, "Queer" is something I still think of as a thing yelled out of car windows at me, whether for dressing in a masc-presenting way, or walking with my girlfriend. And because of that, it's hard to identify with that word, even in a positive sense. Even though that word, that space of "Queer" as meaning "the huge grey area on the map which is neither 100% heterosexual nor 100% gay" is something that would have saved me so much grief over the course of my life.

So much regret, so much wasted self-loathing, so much time being forced into a biphobic closet because of people (usually in the gay club-subculture) saying things like "dick always wins" and that crap. So I carry a lot of resentment about that particular space/subculture, and both wish feminist queer space had existed sooner, but also wish it had a different name, because that one is so loaded.

But you can't win on either front - if you make up a brilliant new word for a necessary and needed new concept (e.g. Intersectionality) you'll get people going OMG SUCH A WEIRD ABSTRACT ACADEMIC WORD I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT OH THE MULTI-SYLLABIC HORROR. But if you take a word that already exists and use it for a new meaning (e.g. privilege) then you get all this resistance to the new meaning, and people unable to shift from one usage to another, and getting defensive about the old meaning rather than understand or adapt to the new meaning. And I kinda feel like "Queer" is one of those words that is in the latter category.

I haven't said anything about 'misandry', and I don't think BB is misandrist.

I just think it's hypocritical to be gender and sexism aware and continue to use sexist language.

DO YOU GET HOW SEXISM WORKS?

DO YOU ALSO SAY THINGS LIKE "WHY ISNT THERE A WHITE HISTORY MONTH?"

as a man i feel i'm reclaiming slurs like cockfarmer, dickwit and complete fucking tool

Hey! Don't you dare say I'm "nuts". That's OUR word!

Subpost: Y'know, every time I pick up yet another yappy-headed little dude intent on chasing me creepily from thread to thread, hollering his little hate-crush at me, I realise that I am more and more fiiiiiine with it, if my language happens to represent me to them as a ~Misandrist~.

― Branwell with an N, Sunday, 1 June 2014 09:56 (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This (not your post, the offending one) just made me do a double-take. Bizarre. Killfiled.

bob, calling women out for "sexist" language in response to completely harmless phrases like "dick move" is never not going to be a bad look. and this thread is about the worst possible place to try it on. a word of advice from the twice shy.

It's a hobby of his.

"two bald men arguing over a comb"

No sexist comments please

― mohel hell (Bob Six), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 15:35 (1 month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

One of the worst examples of casual gender based derogatory stereotyping I've seen for a while on ilx

― mohel hell (Bob Six), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 15:37 (1 month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

(again, immediately after a BB post)

Gold medalist in the False Equivalencylmpics he is

it's fine if the bald men in the comb scenario are bald by choice but that should be made clear

getting strange ass all around the globe, you may doubt the earnestness with which I think this is sexist language is expressed but it's hardly the equivalent of DO YOU ALSO SAY THINGS LIKE "WHY ISNT THERE A WHITE HISTORY MONTH?" so you get a podium place too

Dafuq

It's actually rooted in the exact same kind of disingenuous "won't someone think of the privileged" bullshit thinking so i'd say it's at least a first cousin, captain pedant.

The idea that trans* or genderqueer people could have a thread to discuss issues we face as relevant to our lives, that's just too big an ask, isn't it.

(sorry, derail partly my fault)

Yes apologies here as well...proceed

Not your fault, but trolls gonna troll, derailers gonna derail, grandstanders gonna grandstand, but the end result is still that the actual discussion gets shut down, which was the OP's desire in the first place. I am just really tired of this. It's tedious and exhausting and fucking boring.

However, "Queer" is something I still think of as a thing yelled out of car windows at me, whether for dressing in a masc-presenting way, or walking with my girlfriend. And because of that, it's hard to identify with that word, even in a positive sense.

Yeah, I guess it's easier for me to accept because I've barely heard it used as an insult in my life, and even before I learned of its current connotations, it always seemed kind of a quaint, outdated feel to it, like I dunno "poofter" or "fruit" or something. Those times I did hear it, it was used in kind of a jocular, teasing manner that didn't pack the sting of epithets like "faggot" or "homo", but I respect that other peoples' experiences with regard to that word may be different.

Yeah, I guess it's just proof of how words change, usages change, connotations change, both from neutral to bad, but bad to neutral, too. But it's important to be sensitive to or at least aware of all of both past and present meanings.

WOW FUCK THE CHICAGO SUN-TIMES

http://www.glaad.org/blog/chicago-sun-times-remove-grossly-inaccurate-op-ed-and-apologizes

it IS the position of major pubs to present opposing views, even when they are liars.

Heinous though the column is, it's no worse than any Bush administration/David Brooks/Bill Kristol horror that the WaPo publishes every day. Columns elide info or outright lie all the time.