Democratic (Party) Direction

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ted kennedy can almost convince me that he still actually cares about stuff. and he's not a moron even though his brain is half gin. who woulda thunk it after all these years? he's still a pandering dog though.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 19 May 2006 03:17 (eighteen years ago) link

well this is certainly how Karl Rove wants us to feel right now

As does Osama.

As do the pancakes.

ihttp://www.petsinuniform.com/images/pancakes.jpg

Fluffy Bear (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows), Friday, 19 May 2006 03:23 (eighteen years ago) link

as does the HTML.

Fluffy Bear (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows), Friday, 19 May 2006 03:23 (eighteen years ago) link


http://seattlecentral.org/faculty/jhubert/mallard.jpgwidth="500" height="250">


Fluffy Bear (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows), Friday, 19 May 2006 03:42 (eighteen years ago) link

Oops. Wrong thread. SMRT.

Fluffy Bear (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows), Friday, 19 May 2006 03:44 (eighteen years ago) link

I like my senator, Ron Wyden, and my congresscritter, Earl Blumenaer. I like Russ Feingold, Byron Dorgan, Obama, Max Cleland, and John Edwards.

Of course, all the guys I like aren't in control of things.

Howard Dean the talker is iffy; Howard Dean the planner is better.

kingfish doesn't live here anymore (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 19 May 2006 03:56 (eighteen years ago) link

George Clooney could be the only hope for the entire planet, assuming W will start nuking shit soon.

He's famous, sort of smart, well spoken and hot. All Reagan had was famous.

Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Friday, 19 May 2006 23:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Dems all wet in their "security" whitepaper:


"More or less money will do nothing to make Defense Department programs and mangers accountable through rudimentary financial management. Managers in the private sector who fail on this measure are fired; some go to jail. In the Defense Department, none are held accountable; many are promoted. When that changes, competent program and financial management can begin...

The Democrats want us to ignore how they helped to create the mess and their current intention to do nothing about it. In fact, they are not even thinking about solutions--and the Republicans appreciate that."

http://www.forward.com/articles/7819

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 22 May 2006 20:16 (eighteen years ago) link

i've largely taken a pass from this thread ... but this online interview from the new yorker is not only a good conversation starter but also a good way to think about the democratic party's direction.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 01:36 (eighteen years ago) link

I thought that interview (and the accompanying article) were good at making the point that Dems can't win just by energizing liberals - since there are a lot more self-identified conservatives than liberals in the US. What works for Rove with the GOP base would not work with the Dems and their base. Hence the need to be centrist.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 15:14 (eighteen years ago) link

exactly. the article is the best statement i've seen of what we need to do and why.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 15:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't know what the fuck 'centrism' is, but as practiced by the Dems since the Clintonizing of the party it's standing for nothing.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 15:36 (eighteen years ago) link

whereas standing for and doing nothing would be leftism. standing for something, falling for anything and doing nothing would be conservatism.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 15:40 (eighteen years ago) link

'centrism' = "I'm not the evil other you think I am"

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 15:42 (eighteen years ago) link

most ppls actual beliefs are liberal, they just dont self identify when asked because the right turned 'liberal' into a slur

and what (ooo), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 15:43 (eighteen years ago) link

yup. wot ethat said.

kingfish doesn't live here anymore (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 15:52 (eighteen years ago) link

lakoff/framing obv relevant here (yet again)

I found the assertion that raising the minimum wage or giving college tuition credits would be rallying policy points for the Democratic Party laughable (not that they're bad ideas - I support both - just that they are not BIG MORAL ISSUES that Dems can use to build a new identity)

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 15:56 (eighteen years ago) link

wot ethan said is only true if you use a broad definition of "liberal," and in the sense that "most" = >50%. at least 35% of the voting public could never be described as "liberal"

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 15:59 (eighteen years ago) link

'concrete policies that will actually improve yr life' has been the only source of traction for the dems in any national election for as long as i can remember so not sure what's laffable about 'we should try the only thing that's worked for us in the past 25 years'? what was the last BIG MORAL ISSUES the dems used to build a new identity - 'cross of gold'??? arguably carter maybe but even there the only 'moral issue' was standard anti-washington tap. i'm thinking the only approach the dems have won with for nearly a hundred years (note: 'cross of gold' didn't even work at the time) might be the way to go, call me crazy.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 16:08 (eighteen years ago) link

most ppls actual beliefs are liberal, they just dont self identify when asked because the right turned 'liberal' into a slur

I believe that there are some substantive differences between self-identified liberals and self-identified moderates and conservatives- there's more going on here than the changing image of a word. There's a school of thought that says that Dems don't need to change any of their positions - they just need to change how they talk about them (ie., the Lakoff school). However, I think that there's a limit to how far you can go with this, unless you are going to come out and lie. People want to hear you talk the right talk, but they are also interested in what you say you are going to do, and they have a high aversion to any perceived phoniness. I think the successful candidate will have to combine the right language with some substantive policy proposals that show it's more than a matter of language.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 16:36 (eighteen years ago) link

both OTM

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 16:48 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't agree with the way you re-phrase what I said there blount, nor do I agree that such issues were the sole source of Democratic successes in the 20th century. My point is that those small nickel-and-dime social policy stands, which the vast majority of the country support, are not the things that will successfully reframe the Democratic Party's identity and enable them to forge ahead revitalized in the coming years.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 16:54 (eighteen years ago) link

contrast these smaller program-specific stands with the monolothic identity presented by the Republicans - you know exactly what you're going to get when they're in power: tax cuts, a war/invasion followed by increased military spending, and a few nods to the agenda of the Christian right. This is how they present themselves: free market, aggressive on national security, and Christian/family-oriented. A bedrock of simple concepts with broad appeal to base an identity around. The Democrats don't have this kind of focus or discipline, they can't construct any kind of clear, coherent, easily defensible identity with these minor "we like the minimum wage and lockboxes and reducing the speed limit to 55 etc" kind of gambits. You can't cobble it together that way.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:07 (eighteen years ago) link

but the Democrats are currently all too clumsy and/or too spineless to make any kind of dramatic and effective "THIS IS WHAT WE STAND FOR" declarations. Which is what they really need to do, but their media ineptitude and lack of principles have left them hogtied.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:09 (eighteen years ago) link

how exactly does "THIS IS WHAT WE STAND FOR" work for the Reps (who, just like the Dems, offer a set menu of policy options to voters) other than in its appeal to strong-and-wrongs, and how exactly would it work for the Dems?

once again, show me the secret cadre of liberals who are our key to electoral success.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:19 (eighteen years ago) link

it works for the Republicans in that its a simple, easily understandable, easily relayed formula. It doesn't work for the Democrats because they prefer things like nuances, and compromises, and coalitions, and other things of a less easily digestible nature. At the moment they're floundering and letting their opponents effectively paint them as unprincipled and disorganized. In case you didn't notice, I didn't bring up anything about a liberal base at all, but I'm sure you and blount would prefer to just take easy potshots rather than digest anything I actually say. Have fun! Keep on losin!

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:28 (eighteen years ago) link

"the Reps (who, just like the Dems, offer a set menu of policy options to voters)"

the Dems don't offer a set menu of policy options. Its all garbled. Just look at Kerry's campaign, it was a mess of contradictions and half-steps. More importantly, the Dems don't back up the policies they do occasionally trumpet with anything like a coherent philosophy or framework.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:30 (eighteen years ago) link

(and its the coherent philosophy/framework thing that's more important because its easier for people to understand - eg, "I vote for Bush cuz he's a Christian" etc.)

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:30 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm sure you and blount would prefer to just take easy potshots rather than digest anything I actually say. Have fun! Keep on losin!

UH

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:32 (eighteen years ago) link

(I am obviously getting into Lakoff territory here with the whole consistent message/framework thing - but we've had that debate before so possibly this isn't worthwhile...)

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:35 (eighteen years ago) link

it works for the Republicans in that its a simple, easily understandable, easily relayed formula. It doesn't work for the Democrats because they prefer things like nuances, and compromises, and coalitions, and other things of a less easily digestible nature

Republicans don't believe in nuance and coalitions?

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:44 (eighteen years ago) link

in terms of their public face, I would say by and large no, they do not. They prefer to present a unified, consistent facade. In terms of actual political mechanics, obviously nuances and coalitions are necessary elements for effective governing.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:48 (eighteen years ago) link

shakey thinks 'immigration' was crafted as an election year issue by gop leadership instead of a grass roots issue that's been boiling for years that the gop leadership is figuring out how to merely survive. cf. his 'unified, consistent facade' remarks for more 'i'm not actually remotely familiar with the right at all' antics.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:49 (eighteen years ago) link

blount stop putting words in my fucking mouth. yr constant misrepresentation is really tiresome. (for the record my assertion has always been that the rightwing push on the immigration "issue" came from BELOW - which bubbled up most importantly to Reps in the House - but it is still a manufactured and bullshit election year issue. Obviously DubyaCo itself has little to gain from the immigration debate.)

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:51 (eighteen years ago) link

at any rate, its clear that the recent cracks in the Republicans' cracks in their "unified, consistent facade" re: immigration (and a bunch of other issues) is precisely what's hurting them.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:53 (eighteen years ago) link

sorry - my browser is acting up cuz i swear i'm seeing you post some crazy out of touch 'unified, consistent front' bullshit above, goddamn firefox!

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 17:53 (eighteen years ago) link

I think the left world wide is in some serious difficulty because it isn't standing for anything. It has only won in the west (france aside) laft 15 years by walking firmly to the right. The 80s caused a big implosion for the left, globalisation and liberalism knocked the stuffing out out unionism and collective action and the left retreated into parochial nationalism or in the case of places like britain picked up the Liberal banner. At the moment when a socialist international could have spread out over the links made by free trade, it gave up.


the Dems could find a Tony Blair, and they may well have in Hillary Clinton, or in an age where workers fear for their jobs and an aging population fears the cost of healthcare they could wave the banner of FDR and talk about socialised medicine, globalised employement rights, lowering domestic fuel costs through energy efficiency.

You never know, Hillary may, with a democratic congress, be able to fix medical care in the US but she seems to be too polarising a figure to get that congress, even if she is a bankable centrist.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:08 (eighteen years ago) link

uh South America's totally rockin the leftism these days. (How well and to what ends is debatable...)

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:13 (eighteen years ago) link

we've had this convo several times before over the last two years, but one of things Lakoff talks about is the need to boil down all the things that progressive folks stand for and to put the correct narrative out there, doing enough to reinforce it so that it becomes part of the common lexicon. It's being able to come up 5-10 soundbite/two-word/bulletpoint phrases that immediately come to mind when somebody asks the question, "what do the democrats stand for?"

The distillation is the important bit here, taking the central core that all the various factions on the left grow out of(green folks, union folks, health care folks, sustainable energy folks, public-agencies-should-actually-be-competent folks, etc).

kingfish doesn't live here anymore (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Fair point, I was thinking more of western europe and north america. However it does go to show how popular traditional, if populist, socialist parties are.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:16 (eighteen years ago) link

I think 2008 is the year for the Dems to shout socialised medicine from the rooftops and screw the HMOs and their money. The aging boomers are hurting and the US is paying twice as much on healthcare, as a proportion of GDP as the next biggest spender. The US government pays as much as the UK or germany does and then the private sector pays as much again. Make that the one issue, Shout it everywhere from now until November 2008. No compromises, no half measuresand point at all the money the HMOs are funenling into the GOP.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:21 (eighteen years ago) link

I find it weird that blount is taking me to task so viciously - its not like I'm saying something Karl Rove himself hasn't advanced a million times before. Republicans win when they stick to a forceful, consistent, simple message - their recent slide has, not coincidentally, gone hand-in-hand with a splintering of their message and a devolution into bickering about party identity, who's a "true conservative" etc. This kind of soul-searching is unappealing to voters and damaging to political credibility.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:24 (eighteen years ago) link

I think the left world wide is in some serious difficulty because it isn't standing for anything

maybe what it has stood for in the past 20 years simply isn't popular. Or, in a more palatable format for liberals to accept, maybe what the left stood for was too easily spun as failure by the right. Since, you know, voters are simply willfully ignorant of reality and all.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:24 (eighteen years ago) link

blount: viciousness :: Clintons : pandering

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:26 (eighteen years ago) link

... and really the Repubs recent slide can be directly traced back to Dubya winning his second term. Immediately afterwards came the predictable squandering of political capital as all the various players in the Republican Party, who up to now had been pretty happy to collectively toe the party line, now lined up for payback on their pet issues - Social Security reform, Terry Schiavo, immigration, etc. - and basically blew it.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:29 (eighteen years ago) link

The platforms of 20 years ago aren't relavent today. liberalism, by and large has won out world wide. Socialism grew up as a reaction to and a progression from liberalism in the 19th century. Socialism need to look to this progression again. But it remains that people want to live safe, healthy and comfortable lives and they want their kids to do better than they did. These are aspirations that the left should be standiung up and saying that it stands for. It's what the left, deep down, has always been about, its had some crazy notiuons about how to get there and seems to have forgotten that in recent years. they have one hell of a 'dog whistle issue' right there. That's what people's fears and asirations boil down to, be it health, education, immigration, security.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:30 (eighteen years ago) link

One of the major issues, as addressed in this article is style and perception. Most people have an automatic gut-level idea of what Democrat and Republican mean.

We have to change that idea at the level of intutition. I don't care about liberalism and centrism. The Democrats have to capture people's imagination and dominate the national consciousness. Learning how to speak people's language carries more political currency than policy.

I mean, universal health care (not necessarily single payer, but possibly so) could become just as centrist as Social Security.

If Democrats can't find a way to make people feel differently about Democrats, it doesn't matter how radically centrist they become or how well-calculated their policy proposals are.

We already are a centrist party. How do you change that feeling?

Fluffy Bear (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Since, you know, voters are simply willfully ignorant of reality and all.

yeah, the mass of the voting public immediately saw right thru that "saddam = 9/11" schtick that most of 2002 consisted of..

xpost: exactly, Ed, that's what Lakoff's been talking about for 10 years.

kingfish doesn't live here anymore (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:33 (eighteen years ago) link

blount's formula: if you're not viciously attacking someone whose opinions differ from yours, you're a "reactionary in action." Cuz personal attacks over the internet advance the Dem party, apparently.

timmy tannin (pompous), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Fluffy - your 3:32 post calls for something that I term "centrism"

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 18:38 (eighteen years ago) link


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