he put a finger in his mouth and made a gagging sound.
when he saw you coming?
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 24 July 2014 14:08 (ten years ago) link
quoting Addison deWitt's outtakes now, i see
― son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 24 July 2014 14:18 (ten years ago) link
champion to champion
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 24 July 2014 14:32 (ten years ago) link
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PlrXXfn9_Cg/SrO5syYFA5I/AAAAAAAACF4/BN111w9zfNQ/s1600-h/2341973,57RcmBk1FkB4xOPiPAtbxXaZ8losuKFZ4EpfFXDwEb3UuQZpM6LPlArm0UA5ENB2KSQKrAPtYcJjzPcJVNgyTw%3D%3D.jpg
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 July 2014 14:45 (ten years ago) link
http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/06/69106-004-3B98C103.jpg
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 July 2014 14:46 (ten years ago) link
And I don't care how spotless a movie's diaper is if it doesn't have a few flowers on it.
― You are exactly why people root for the apes (Eric H.), Thursday, 24 July 2014 14:53 (ten years ago) link
out of a medieval melodrama!
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 24 July 2014 15:03 (ten years ago) link
Are the medievalists back from Iceland yet?
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 July 2014 15:10 (ten years ago) link
she's a weird critic because she's at her worst when she loves something
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Thursday, 24 July 2014 17:43 (ten years ago) link
Maybe not "worst," but I agree her raves are less convincing than her pans.
― You are exactly why people root for the apes (Eric H.), Thursday, 24 July 2014 18:08 (ten years ago) link
to make this thread not all about PK but "meditative" too, i actually did fall asleep during Norte, the End of History
― son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 24 July 2014 18:14 (ten years ago) link
Saw India Song last night. Viscerally hated it. I was in such a hurry to vacate the theatre, I forgot my sunglasses.
I really wish clemenza could see Duras' Nathalie Granger as i did tonight. It makes India Song look like Bringing Up Baby.
How great is it that Kael praised El Camion in the same column in which she savaged Star Wars?
― this horrible, rotten slog to rigor mortis (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 19 October 2014 03:19 (nine years ago) link
Even a broken clock, etc. *ducks*
― Thus We Frustrate Kid Charlemagne (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 19 October 2014 21:14 (nine years ago) link
Been trying to put my finger on my problem with PK for a while, think it comes down to something like this. She clearly had a talent for communicating her enthusiasm that is almost, um, seductive, and a way with words, an ability to write well-constructed, memorable sentences in idiomatic English that could run rings, not to mention circles and squares, around most of her contemporaries. But in the end there is some unforgivable flaw in her critical thinking. Perhaps it is because there is some ideal of a well-functioning critical mind, or maybe of any mind, that one has to learn to trust one's instincts but at the same time monitor them with one's analytic mind, to make corrections and provide explanations, to name a few of the many functions involved in this balancing act. Her general approach as I understand it, to watch everything only once, then run home to type out a fever dream to bowl the readers over with an ever more garrulous outpouring of Paulinist Prose (okay maybe there was some editing or revising of the words but not of the opinion), is not really a system, it can't be tinkered with or fixed once it starts misfiring and veering astray. The end result becomes a Cult of Personality of The Gatekeeper, requiring a few well-chosen favorites, old and new, to bestow praise on while others are vilified and not permitted to enter the city walls. As a case in point, maybe if she had anything like a modicum of self-reflection and correction, at least as a critic, she might have recovered from the trauma she experienced when she Went Hollywood and discovered that the Studio Bosses Had No Clothes.― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, July 24, 2014 5:00 AM (2 months ago)
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, July 24, 2014 5:00 AM (2 months ago)
this is a great post, and pretty much otm.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Sunday, 19 October 2014 21:51 (nine years ago) link
tho i think kael's early work -- the stuff collected in "i lost it at the movies," and i think her second collection as well -- is still really great and mostly avoids the pitfalls you describe.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Sunday, 19 October 2014 21:54 (nine years ago) link
I don't disagree with anything in James' (yes, excellent) post, and to count her as a major, or even your biggest, influence does not mean you're oblivious to his reservations. She had a way of doing things, and you take that into account. To me, the sainted Manny Farber had his own kind of breathlessness too.
― clemenza, Sunday, 19 October 2014 22:01 (nine years ago) link
i think i'd need some examples of other critics showing off this analytic self-monitoring system in their later years before i buy that this is what negatively distinguishes her from her peers
― da croupier, Sunday, 19 October 2014 22:14 (nine years ago) link
As a case in point, maybe if she had anything like a modicum of self-reflection and correction, at least as a critic, she might have recovered from the trauma she experienced when she Went Hollywood and discovered that the Studio Bosses Had No Clothes.
what makes you think she suffered from a trauma the rest of her life? I've said this already but her writing shows no loss of verve in the eighties.
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 October 2014 22:18 (nine years ago) link
Besides, the first essay in her first book is this Didion-esque account of California phonies. I don't think it's an inhuman reaction when she got a chance to work in Hollywood it was worse than she expected.
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 October 2014 22:19 (nine years ago) link
she abused the second person for sure, but when guys talk about her like this whirling dervish who lacked their critical distance and intellectual restraint it just sounds like a chickenshit, self-flattering way to disqualify her prose despite its relative memorability and influence. "yes, i can't compete with her language and passion, but i'm smarter, trust me."
― da croupier, Sunday, 19 October 2014 22:26 (nine years ago) link
"after all, she liked that DePalma movie"
Plus, critics are artists too and thus lack the Olympian detachment and capacity for self-analysis that no one has.
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 October 2014 22:27 (nine years ago) link
it feels like her willingness to be direct, to express her enthusiasms without intellectual hedges, without trying to fit everything into a system, is what lets people who've in no way proven their intellectual superiority, talk about her like an idiot savant. "what does she know, she only sees movies once" - as if watching a movie multiple times means you know anything more than what's on the screen.
again, i do think she was a presumptuous bully - while you only need to see a movie once to convey to the reader what it was like to see the movie for the first time, you might want to employ diligent fact-checking - but nobody who says something was broken in her critical mind has any right to claim THIS is what made her stand apart.
― da croupier, Sunday, 19 October 2014 22:58 (nine years ago) link
disqualify her prose despite its relative memorability and influence. "yes, i can't compete with her language and passion, but i'm /smarter/, trust me."
― Thus We Frustrate Kid Charlemagne (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:05 (nine years ago) link
so she had a flaw in her critical mind because she didn't change the b+ to an a- when she compiled 5001 nights at the movies?
― da croupier, Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:08 (nine years ago) link
Of course she saw movies more than once. In one of her earliest essays she makes a casual remark about how certain movies with average visuals like All About Eve look great on TV.
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:09 (nine years ago) link
"grrr, she hasn't admitted that nashville ain't all that in the final edit? something is broken in her brain!!!"
― da croupier, Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:10 (nine years ago) link
unlike ebert, with that fine system that allowed him to truly know what were The Great Movies
― da croupier, Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:11 (nine years ago) link
Plus, assuming she didn't rewatch stuff, if you're a critic reviewing at the pace she does, you don't often rewatch old stuff! And in the pre-VHS/cable days it was hard. Why waste time watching a B-list John Farrow film to see if it deserves reevaluation when you can watch Bertolucci?
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:11 (nine years ago) link
because is how you prove you are king dick of the auteur theory
― da croupier, Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:12 (nine years ago) link
As much as I wish she had revisited and (when necessary) revised opinions, the one thing I'll say, based on my own writing, is that it's the ultimate rabbit-hole. I do it way too much when it comes to music, and I often think "What difference does it make that in 2014 I'm sick of this song that I once loved? Am I really accomplishing anything in pointing this out?"
― clemenza, Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:13 (nine years ago) link
Exactly. "I don't rewatch movies!" was to provoke poor Andrew Sarris.
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:14 (nine years ago) link
I think there's a way to do that without overdoing it. Kauffmann was excellent in that regard.
― clemenza, Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:15 (nine years ago) link
in her mind to rewatch Hurry Sundown for the sake of proving Preminger was a Great Director was less fun than poking the Sarris tiger.
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:16 (nine years ago) link
while most would pray sarris submitted his obituary of pauline before 9/11 (she died on september 3rd, the observer street date was the 17th), i kinda hope he was describing the bruises she inflicted on him that week.
― da croupier, Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:20 (nine years ago) link
without trying to fit everything into a /system/,
is what lets people who've in no way proven their intellectual superiority, talk about her like an idiot savant.
"what does she know, she only sees movies once" - as if watching a movie multiple times means you know anything more than what's on the screen.
― Thus We Frustrate Kid Charlemagne (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:21 (nine years ago) link
In what other art form is okay to write about something after experiencing it only once?
James, seriouslY?
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:23 (nine years ago) link
I don't think Hurry Sundown had a future with her nohow. I guess the kind of film I would have most liked to see her to back to were her oddball enthusiasms, something like Shoot the Moon. When she reviews Mississippi Burning a few years later, a brief mention of whether or not the film held up for her. She was so different than most critics there, I think that's of value.
― clemenza, Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:23 (nine years ago) link
"go back to"
― clemenza, Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:24 (nine years ago) link
Last post was xpost. So the argument is now: she really did rewatch stuff, she was just trying to tick Andy off and have the last laugh, and if she didn't it was okay because there was another raft of masterpieces waiting to be watched and time waits for no one?
― Thus We Frustrate Kid Charlemagne (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:24 (nine years ago) link
Beyond the number of critics who do the same with books and music, you answered your own question: she saw and wrote so well about that so-called first viewing (which you can believe if you want) that it looks like a fourth.
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:25 (nine years ago) link
Okay, I fell into your trap. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPxxG31JOCg
― Thus We Frustrate Kid Charlemagne (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:28 (nine years ago) link
with music i prefer critics who listen deeply because if a song is good i plan to hear it more than once, and want to know it holds up over many listens. most movies i'll only see once and therefore i'm cool with critics doing likewise, assuming they've got a good memory or fact-checker
― da croupier, Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:33 (nine years ago) link
yeah I get that. A song is three minutes, listened to wherever. You gotta make time for movies.
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:35 (nine years ago) link
I'll betray my rock-critic heritage here, but investing deeper attention and more repeat visits to a three-minute song than a three-hour film doesn't quite compute for me (realizing that you will, as a practical matter, inevitably do the latter)...Anyway, going to watch The Candidate for the 29th time right now, so proceed apace.
― clemenza, Sunday, 19 October 2014 23:51 (nine years ago) link
2X speed on the PS3 for DVDs/Blu-Ray is a life-changing w/r/t slow cinema.
Search: George WashingtonDestroy: In the Mood
― avant-sarsgaard (litel), Monday, 20 October 2014 00:00 (nine years ago) link
Just remembered something of hers that I did really like: her piece on Satyajit Ray's Devi.
― Thus We Frustrate Kid Charlemagne (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 20 October 2014 00:39 (nine years ago) link
shit, she is still this interesting to you ppl, huh
― this horrible, rotten slog to rigor mortis (Dr Morbius), Monday, 20 October 2014 01:05 (nine years ago) link
You were the reviver!
― Thus We Frustrate Kid Charlemagne (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 20 October 2014 01:16 (nine years ago) link
well that was more for Mlle Duras' torture of clemenza
― this horrible, rotten slog to rigor mortis (Dr Morbius), Monday, 20 October 2014 01:28 (nine years ago) link