will this vote somehow lead to James McAvoy doing a nonshitty movie once in awhile?
― son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 17:27 (ten years ago) link
so how long before the Welsh are like "you know what we don't like the English either"
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 17:27 (ten years ago) link
nostalgia
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,May by thy mighty aid,Victory bring.May he sedition hush,and like a torrent rush,Rebellious Scots to crush,God save The King.
― Insane Prince of False Binaries (Gukbe), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 17:30 (ten years ago) link
english-born population in scotland is about 8% of the total and in wales about 20%
― ogmor, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 18:16 (ten years ago) link
^ as an englishman living in scotland i've been wondering abt that - and abt how we will be perceived in a independent scotland. may you live in interesting times eh
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 18:23 (ten years ago) link
would like to hear how/why foreigners feel nostalgia for ~britain~ or the uk gov
Took up white man's burden, civilized my people iirc
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 18:26 (ten years ago) link
well yeah you can see why I'm a little bemused
xp there are twice as many scottish born ppl living in england than the reverse, idk how much change there'd be
― ogmor, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 18:39 (ten years ago) link
not very liberal or very democratic tbf
Oh, come on! compared to who?
― Spaceport Leuchars (dowd), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:17 (ten years ago) link
That's much less likely to happen. Not because the Welsh love the English, just other stuff.
― Turtleneck Work Solutions (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:25 (ten years ago) link
xp to rephrase then: the fact that "liberal democracy" may be one of the less shitty forms of political organization human beings have managed thus far in our history doesn't really make it much to get excited about imo
― Daphnis Celesta, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:27 (ten years ago) link
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/10/scottish-independence-poll-no-vote-lead
― strychnine, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:30 (ten years ago) link
I'll agree with that x-post
― Spaceport Leuchars (dowd), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:31 (ten years ago) link
Questions for people who've been following this more closely than me:If an independent Scotland is outside of the EU (initially, at least) what would that mean for Scottish people already living and working in EU countries? Would they still have the right to be there?Also, how would things work in terms of British passports and Scottish passports? If you were a Scot living in (for example) Paris at the time of independence, would you have to apply for a Scottish passport in order to get back home again or could you still travel on a British passport? In fact, would Scottish people living in England have to choose if they were Scottish or 'British' (what would that even mean any more?)? And what about English people living in Scotland?
― Turtleneck Work Solutions (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:32 (ten years ago) link
uk govt is v centralized & has seen v little significant reform for a long time. there are more or less the same number of mps now as there were 300 years ago, and since then suffrage has been greatly extended and the population has gone up by about ten times.
― ogmor, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:38 (ten years ago) link
As a Scot living in England, aiui I will not be Scottish next week in the event of a Yes vote. I think I could potentially obtain a Scottish passport but that isn't clear - the proposal has dealt with Brits living in Scotland and said they will get a Scottish passport in addition to the UK one.
Xpost
― and she's crying in a stairwell in Devon (aldo), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:39 (ten years ago) link
English people living in Scotland will get Scottish passports, because they will be Scottish.
― and she's crying in a stairwell in Devon (aldo), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:40 (ten years ago) link
The theory is that after the vote we would be independent in 18months (right?) And that would be enough time to negotiate Scotland's position in the EU, so there would be no overlap.
― Spaceport Leuchars (dowd), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:42 (ten years ago) link
can see no reason why Scots living outside of Scotland will not be able to apply for a Scottish passport
― Daphnis Celesta, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:42 (ten years ago) link
or lack of overlap. you know what I mean - no point where Scots are not members of the EU.
― Spaceport Leuchars (dowd), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:43 (ten years ago) link
is there a good web site that summarizes the most common/best arguments pro and con? i mean, for an american doofus like myself.
― I dunno. (amateurist), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:44 (ten years ago) link
Well neither do I but I have seen nothing on it - but it wouldn't actually be any use, unless you wanted a clean passport and a dirty one. xpost
― and she's crying in a stairwell in Devon (aldo), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:44 (ten years ago) link
the uk is unusually undemocratic because it has been unusually stable for so long. there has been no occasion to reform, it's all been done piecemeal & w/out an overarching vision
― ogmor, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:46 (ten years ago) link
i don't think it's only about that - central government has been steadily swallowing up previously regional powers since the 1980s at least
― Daphnis Celesta, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:48 (ten years ago) link
On a vaguely related subject - do you Irish people need passports to travel to Britain and do British people need passports to travel to Ireland or do we have some kind of arrangement in place?
― Turtleneck Work Solutions (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:48 (ten years ago) link
It's difficult to suggest a site because like any other polarising event the neutral is viewed as biased by both sides.
― Spaceport Leuchars (dowd), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:48 (ten years ago) link
there are no passport checks driving between the Republic and Northern Ireland that i've ever seen, sure it was different pre '97
― Daphnis Celesta, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:50 (ten years ago) link
xxxp I guess I wasn't thinking of centralizing as reform but obviously it is. I've seen politicians opining about the strengthening of the PM at the expense of the cabinet too. you could probably make a case for the constitution being responsible for the relative mildness of british political culture
― ogmor, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:55 (ten years ago) link
centralization of state and parties has been a v. anti-democratic force in general i think, certainly it's the single biggest stake driven thru the Labour party's corpse
― Daphnis Celesta, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:01 (ten years ago) link
One more question: after partition, were people in Northern Ireland entitled to have an Irish passport instead of / as well as a British one (e.g. a nationalist born in Derry before Ireland was split in two and who considered himself Irish, not British)? And if they were, is that still true today? And if it is still true today, does that mean a footballer from Belfast could choose if they want to play for Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland?(sorry for derailing this a bit, but I'm looking for precedents to get a sense of what is likely to happen)
― Turtleneck Work Solutions (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:02 (ten years ago) link
what's the ideological basis for scottish expatriates not having a vote?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:04 (ten years ago) link
no representation without taxation
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:05 (ten years ago) link
Basically. People who bought a house the week before last get to vote.
― and she's crying in a stairwell in Devon (aldo), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:13 (ten years ago) link
if expatriates were allowed to vote, do you think they'd favor yes or no?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:14 (ten years ago) link
i know of at least one expat Yesh vote
― Daphnis Celesta, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:18 (ten years ago) link
scottish identity does not yet formally exist so exactly who would fall into this category is unclear, residency (+british passport) is the only way that makes sense imo, doesn't seem to have been especially contentious
― ogmor, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:18 (ten years ago) link
football rules shd've sufficed for Scottish identity
― Daphnis Celesta, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:19 (ten years ago) link
scottish identity does not yet formally exist ??? is this true? braveheart lied to me.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:19 (ten years ago) link
or english identity obv
― ogmor, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:20 (ten years ago) link
obv any kind of geographic/ethnic identity is problematic but does scottish identity exist any less than irish identity or german identity?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:22 (ten years ago) link
Not formally. How would you determine who is Scottish enough to vote, legally?
― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:25 (ten years ago) link
someone born in Scotland?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:26 (ten years ago) link
They could have been born to English parents and never lived there, equally you could have people born elsewhere who have grown up there but moved away recently. The former would be included, the latter excluded.
― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:29 (ten years ago) link
I believe that anyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to both UK and Irish passports.
― strychnine, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:31 (ten years ago) link
is there any other "country" in the world where naturalization/suffrage is entirely dependent upon current residency? like, it seems unique?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:32 (ten years ago) link
(nb i think it's a pretty great idea to base the vote entirely in current residency - it just seems unusual to me)
― Mordy, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:33 (ten years ago) link
isn't this v similar to the quebec referendum?
― ogmor, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:35 (ten years ago) link
Yeah, without checking a source, I'm fairly sure current residency is the criterion for someone to vote in a referendum on Quebec sovereignty.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 20:59 (ten years ago) link
It's surely the criterion for voting in a provincial election. I don't see why a referendum would be different.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 21:02 (ten years ago) link
Pretty sure the Sunday Times published the one poll putting the Yes campaign in the lead to freak everyone else out of their complacency. Latest poll has a six point lead for No which I'd partly put down to the prospect of shit getting real for some of the undecideds. Certainly not from the brilliant performance of the No campaign at any rate.
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 21:32 (ten years ago) link
Newsnight just reported both Lloyds and Royal Bank of Scotland have confirmed in the last few minutes they will move their headquarters out of Scotland in the event of a Yes vote.
― and she's crying in a stairwell in Devon (aldo), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 21:36 (ten years ago) link