The key to allowing England to succeed the UK in international forums is provided by the break-up of the USSR in 1991. Russia and the other former republics of the USSR wrote a joint letter to the UN secretary general stating that Russia should take the USSR’s place on all UN bodies and that it would assume the USSR’s obligations internationally. This letter was circulated to UN member states and no opposition was recorded. Russia thus succeeded the USSR in 1993.
This precedent means that Scotland holds a strong hand in negotiations with England: it could offer to support England’s claim to be the successor state of the UK on the Security Council and to be classified as a nuclear weapon state in exchange for England’s backing for EU and Nato membership for Scotland, a timetable for removing Trident and agreement to a common currency area. Scottish independence would enable Scotland to join Norway and Denmark as independent non-nuclear-weapon European Nato states; it would also help to free England from its nuclear pretensions and its role as America’s poodle. Both new states inhabiting the island of Great Britain would benefit.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n17/lrb-scotland/reflections-on-the-independence-referendum
― Nothing less than the Spirit of the Age (nakhchivan), Wednesday, 10 September 2014 23:49 (ten years ago) link
Sorta lol at guy's letter first citing the issue of American billionaires imperiously building golf courses. I mean it's an atrocity but he has energy policy in there too I guess.
Also wasn't that trump? He isn't a billionaire.
― music for cryonic suspension (Hunt3r), Thursday, 11 September 2014 00:00 (ten years ago) link
Ha iguess he is
― music for cryonic suspension (Hunt3r), Thursday, 11 September 2014 00:03 (ten years ago) link
Would imagine the Scots might find that a little patronising.
Actually that's a terribly phrased post from me - I don't really think there's much of a direct causal link between the Sunday Times article and a regained lead for the No campaign. The polls have moved around quite a lot as opinion polls tend to, but the Sunday Times as a Murdoch paper obviously went big on that particular poll for reasons other than just newsworthiness and its main aim was to shock people in England and particularly in Westminster, where attitudes have been remarkably relaxed until last weekend. Obviously I don't mean the Scots in general have been complacent in all this.
"Shit getting real for some of the undecideds" is a pretty crass way of putting it (probably shouldn't post about politics on the way back from the pub in future). I tend to assume that enough undecideds in most elections will ultimately end up favouring the status quo because that's how it always seems to go, but who knows in this instance. I doubt many of them are directly influenced by a Sunday Times piece though.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 11 September 2014 06:54 (ten years ago) link
Scottish Sun is broadly pro-Yes, and Salmond, like any political leader in Britain, has been courting Murdoch for years. Murdoch has also made pro-Independence tweets. Obv the Sunday Times may be speaking more to an English, pro-No audience, but trailing a Yes poll lead also sucks up to the boss, never a bad idea at News International.
A victory for Independence would also obv have very complicated implications for the BBC, which I'm sure is a part of Murdoch's calculations.
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Thursday, 11 September 2014 07:30 (ten years ago) link
Regardless of any political implications, it would have been crazy for the Sunday Times not to splash on that poll once they'd seen how it turned out.
― Alba, Thursday, 11 September 2014 10:30 (ten years ago) link
ie I'm not sure you can draw any conclusions about political intent from the fact they went big on it.
― Alba, Thursday, 11 September 2014 10:31 (ten years ago) link
guardian leading today with screamer of a headline "MORTGAGE RISK TO UK IF SCOTLAND VOTES YES" or some shit
this is truly the biggest gun a british newspaper could wheel out against a yes vote
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 11 September 2014 10:42 (ten years ago) link
It's not clear from splash headline, but it's about mortgages for Scots, not the rest of the UK.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/10/scottish-independence-mortgage-lenders-yes-vote
― Alba, Thursday, 11 September 2014 10:52 (ten years ago) link
Worth remembering that the poll was of about 1000 people and conducted by YouGov, which is generally not the most reliable - unless they've changed their methodology recently.
― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Thursday, 11 September 2014 11:20 (ten years ago) link
Also worth remembering that all these polls are fairly useless, except maybe for tracking change over time (within one organisation's polls). Lack of real precedents make it impossible to judge how to weight responses.
― Alba, Thursday, 11 September 2014 11:23 (ten years ago) link
Still confident there'll be a no vote, but that's mainly just my own hunches about human nature (trying not to be swayed by the cacophony of separatist sentiment in all social media channels).
― Alba, Thursday, 11 September 2014 11:25 (ten years ago) link
it must be yes
― conrad, Thursday, 11 September 2014 12:43 (ten years ago) link
Pipe down, cacophonist.
― Alba, Thursday, 11 September 2014 12:45 (ten years ago) link
i will not be silenced
― conrad, Thursday, 11 September 2014 12:53 (ten years ago) link
are you moving back to scotland, conrad?
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Thursday, 11 September 2014 12:59 (ten years ago) link
who's asking
― conrad, Thursday, 11 September 2014 13:13 (ten years ago) link
Asshoppers
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Thursday, 11 September 2014 13:17 (ten years ago) link
I don't know
― conrad, Thursday, 11 September 2014 13:30 (ten years ago) link
On turning into Buchanan Street the delegation was met by a man shouting “Welcome to our imperial overlords!” and playing the Imperial Death March from Star Wars through a speaker he had fastened to his bicycle.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/11/westminster-express-scotland-labour-mps
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Thursday, 11 September 2014 13:43 (ten years ago) link
For those of us who want most of all see a genuine improvement in the system in the rest of the UK, I feel like an emphatic win for the No vote is the worst of all immediate outcomes. Luckily that looks like it won't happen.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 11 September 2014 13:58 (ten years ago) link
So instead 'emphatic' it will be a small win for the "No" then?
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 11 September 2014 14:06 (ten years ago) link
i suspect that it will, which will be weird, because all the energy behind the Yes campaign isn't just going to go away quietly
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 11 September 2014 14:19 (ten years ago) link
No, but if my own experiences with feeling energised are anything to go by, it can turn into something other than purpose and vitality surprisingly quickly.
― Alba, Thursday, 11 September 2014 14:30 (ten years ago) link
Now that everyone's got excited, No will win
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 September 2014 14:34 (ten years ago) link
fear factor always wins out and Scotland will not get any more real meaningful powers,nothing will change for the rest of us in the UK and business as usual until the EU referendum when the scare stories will re-appear but used against those using it now. Only difference is the media will be biased towards them.
― strychnine, Thursday, 11 September 2014 14:40 (ten years ago) link
Worst of all long-term outcomes = emphatic Yes, then 1997, again (eased in by the cosh coming down from business / finance)
― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 11 September 2014 15:16 (ten years ago) link
Farrell to play role of Benjamin in the indyref Animal Farm.
― Alba, Thursday, 11 September 2014 15:19 (ten years ago) link
(I'll be your understudy)
― Alba, Thursday, 11 September 2014 15:20 (ten years ago) link
its spreading
http://i.imgur.com/BKZASVp.png
― lag∞n, Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:15 (ten years ago) link
Ward Fowler are you yes?
― conrad, Thursday, 11 September 2014 16:31 (ten years ago) link
yes
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Thursday, 11 September 2014 18:10 (ten years ago) link
if the independence of scotland is a terrible idea because of the currency issue, then in catalonia it seems even worse.
― Van Horn Street, Thursday, 11 September 2014 18:12 (ten years ago) link
whatsa difference if it's the ECB callin the shots?
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 11 September 2014 20:49 (ten years ago) link
Back to 52-48 to no for YouGov.
― Alba, Thursday, 11 September 2014 20:58 (ten years ago) link
ask the greeks, Tracer.
― Van Horn Street, Thursday, 11 September 2014 22:09 (ten years ago) link
Non UK / Y
I don't think Quebec separatists are comparable to Scotland's wanting independence, I have to say, though I guess a lot of people will assume they are.
― ∞, Thursday, 11 September 2014 23:04 (ten years ago) link
I voted no in this thread's poll but I've heard so many things since then and now I'm too scared to vote either way. I don't feel I have enough knowledge about politics and economics to vote responsibly. Whatever the outcome is I'll probably be disappointed. Mostly favouring independence out of sheer curiosity to see what will happen.
When is the next referendum if we don't get independence this time?
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 11 September 2014 23:05 (ten years ago) link
Just out of interest, have there been any polls of what the English would like the result of the referendum to be? (Not counting this poll, obviously)
― Turtleneck Work Solutions (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 11 September 2014 23:13 (ten years ago) link
Narrow win for the no team then probably. A win for the bourgeoisie, the squares, the scared, the conformed. In other words: a win for people who wouldn't in their life make a true difference for Scotland anyway.
I have several Scottish friends and seeing the hope soar within them, the sudden chance to finally materialize or contribute to independence, to self-determination, has been endearing. And not in a naive way. There's huge flocks of youngsters ready to shape their soil into a fruitful new country. It has been a huge uplifting thing to watch.
But it won't happen. Because it never does. This'll end in tears. As everything does in the UK...
― ambient yacht god (Le Bateau Ivre), Thursday, 11 September 2014 23:21 (ten years ago) link
― Van Horn Street, Thursday, September 11, 2014 2:12 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, September 11, 2014 4:49 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
ya since spain is already on the euro doesnt seem like theres really not much difference if an independent catalonia stays on the euro, its not like theyre super poor compared to the rest of spain r they
― lag∞n, Thursday, 11 September 2014 23:29 (ten years ago) link
tho maybe theyre planning on having their own currency idk
― ∞, Thursday, September 11, 2014 7:04 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
you are right, they aren't. quebec separatism was mainly a question of nationalism, a nationalism that is growing increasingly awkward.
i much prefer the general statement behind scotland's independence, but i believe the risk of backfiring is there and quite scary.
― Van Horn Street, Thursday, 11 September 2014 23:42 (ten years ago) link
it took quebec 15 years after the first one
― mookieproof, Friday, 12 September 2014 00:29 (ten years ago) link
then they passed a law in canada that you basically cant succeed
― lag∞n, Friday, 12 September 2014 00:39 (ten years ago) link
not the right place to discuss this, but there is a few very good things about the clarity act.
― Van Horn Street, Friday, 12 September 2014 01:05 (ten years ago) link
I don't feel I have enough knowledge about politics and economics to vote responsibly.
gtfo then
― Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 12 September 2014 02:52 (ten years ago) link
suppose you'll have to abide by the decisions of far less responsible people then
― mookieproof, Friday, 12 September 2014 03:08 (ten years ago) link
Just out of interest, have there been any polls of what the English would like the result of the referendum to be?
Depends how you ask the question (or when you ask it, possibly)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9015374/Britain-divided-over-Scottish-independence.htmlhttp://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/01/english-welsh-majority-against-scots-independence
― Alba, Friday, 12 September 2014 03:09 (ten years ago) link
I'd love to bottle the pompous complacency amongst UK colleagues, some family and acquaintances - a mix of unthought dislike of, or contempt for Scots yoked with strong feelings Scotland should NOT be independent - and spray it over Scotland on the day of voting. Not that it doesn't come across clear as day anyway, but just to be *sure*.
― Fizzles, Friday, 12 September 2014 04:33 (ten years ago) link