“I can’t look in terms of Scotland. It’s bigger than that,” he said.“People in Liverpool have been hammered, Manchester and Southampton. All over.“Everybody has been hammered, not just the Scottish.“We can’t be nationalistic about it. Nationalism has never done it for me. It leads to fascism.“Ultimately, someone like Alex Salmond manipulates people’s national pride and insecurities but he is obviously a power-mad kind of guy.”
“People in Liverpool have been hammered, Manchester and Southampton. All over.
“Everybody has been hammered, not just the Scottish.
“We can’t be nationalistic about it. Nationalism has never done it for me. It leads to fascism.
“Ultimately, someone like Alex Salmond manipulates people’s national pride and insecurities but he is obviously a power-mad kind of guy.”
― I misuse (onimo), Friday, 12 September 2014 10:13 (ten years ago) link
I expected he'd be a No
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Friday, 12 September 2014 10:16 (ten years ago) link
swastika ayes basically
― john wahey (NickB), Friday, 12 September 2014 10:17 (ten years ago) link
Not very rebellious there, eh Boab?
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Friday, 12 September 2014 10:17 (ten years ago) link
LOL (xp)
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Friday, 12 September 2014 10:18 (ten years ago) link
Aye, yer right there, Boab, we're no' the only boozers on the planet efter a'
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Friday, 12 September 2014 10:20 (ten years ago) link
He's right enough. I've been in the pub with him and Mani.
Is it bad to not really listen to people saying that other places are being hard done by as well? They're not the ones getting to make this choice. I'll happily support them when they get themselves the chance to do something, and I would like it if they could applaud Scotland for making the most of the opportunity put in front of them rather than going "b-b-b-but what about us?".
Re Gillespie's witterings, I don't think this is really about nationalism, it's about self-determination. Pretty sure we're going to wake up a nation of fascists next Friday morning if Scotland says yes. Power-mad Alex Salmond offered to step down if it would help, which isn't really a sign of a future dictator now, is it? http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/salmond-i-would-quit-if-it-meant-a-yes-vote-1-3514731
― ailsa, Friday, 12 September 2014 10:36 (ten years ago) link
http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lookandlearn-preview/M/M014/M014390-08.jpg
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Friday, 12 September 2014 10:41 (ten years ago) link
I can see how old-school left-wingers who believe in the solidarity and unity of the British working class (however you define that these days) would favour a no vote fwiw, but I don't think that's what Bobby G's getting at there. In any case since when has Bobby Gillespie ever talked sense about politics?
― Matt DC, Friday, 12 September 2014 10:51 (ten years ago) link
Like, probably the most positive outcome in the event of a No vote would be for that energy to join with other left-leaning groups across the country to push for a change in the status quo that benefits the whole of the UK. Whether that would happen is a different matter, especially with the Labour Party getting in the way (either by glomming onto it and taking it over or actively standing in the way.)
― Matt DC, Friday, 12 September 2014 10:58 (ten years ago) link
Right, but there won't be a country for it to be across?
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 12 September 2014 11:45 (ten years ago) link
I can see how old-school left-wingers who believe in the solidarity and unity of the British working class (however you define that these days) would favour a no vote fwiw, but I don't think that's what Bobby G's getting at there.
I think that is what he's getting at.
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Friday, 12 September 2014 11:48 (ten years ago) link
Yes, and I'm mistaking 'No' for 'Yes', like some kind of spanner.
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 12 September 2014 11:49 (ten years ago) link
Bob's from a serious Old Labour background, his Dad was not so much an Old Labour dinosaur as, uh, whatever came before the dinosaurs.
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Friday, 12 September 2014 11:52 (ten years ago) link
Bobby's dad lost the 1988 Govan bi-election to Jim Sillars (who abandoned Labour to join the Nats in the early 80s).
― I misuse (onimo), Friday, 12 September 2014 12:23 (ten years ago) link
Indeed and he was one of the most inept candidates I've ever seen in my life... and that's by Scottish Labour standards, and that's as low as you can go frankly.
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Friday, 12 September 2014 12:28 (ten years ago) link
I can see how old-school left-wingers who believe in the solidarity and unity of the British working class (however you define that these days) would favour a no vote fwiw
Judging by my Yes leaning FB friends, and one (ex?) ILXor is most vocal in this respect, this is completely arse about and a Yes vote is the only option for the proper left wing as anyone voting No is clearly "a Tory".
― and she's crying in a stairwell in Devon (aldo), Friday, 12 September 2014 13:25 (ten years ago) link
I have seen a smattering of this kind of thing from the Yes campaign and it drives me pretty nuts, even though I understand how strong feelings are:
http://www.facebook.com/375717285904621/posts/398295893646760
― Alba, Friday, 12 September 2014 13:38 (ten years ago) link
The station also created a new logo featuring the union flag without the Scottish blue.
― paolo, Friday, September 12, 2014 4:43 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
oh no are they gonna have to change the flag
― lag∞n, Friday, 12 September 2014 13:58 (ten years ago) link
Pretty sure we're going to wake up a nation of fascists next Friday morning if Scotland says yes
There's a "not" missing here, I assume?
― Turtleneck Work Solutions (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 12 September 2014 16:22 (ten years ago) link
i guess the downside to voting Fuck the UK is you have to share a bed with nitwits like Jacobyte MacLachlainn Lvss
― Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 12 September 2014 16:41 (ten years ago) link
Ha, shit, aye.
― ailsa, Friday, 12 September 2014 17:19 (ten years ago) link
^ also my journey to a yes vote in three words
I can *see* it, I just think it requires a bigger leap of faith even than the idea of independent-Scotland-as-socialist-beacon
― intelligent, expressive males within the greater metropolitan (Bananaman Begins), Friday, 12 September 2014 18:08 (ten years ago) link
socialism is internationalist or it's nothing, within that context independent nation-states are an irrelevance imo but tactical lulz are worth something
― Daphnis Celesta, Friday, 12 September 2014 18:21 (ten years ago) link
lol timing of boris johnson's selection. has salmond mentioned him yet.
― caek, Friday, 12 September 2014 22:08 (ten years ago) link
#ayefacts
― mookieproof, Saturday, 13 September 2014 07:35 (ten years ago) link
fun to see farage arguing so vigorously against scottish independence
― john wahey (NickB), Saturday, 13 September 2014 08:09 (ten years ago) link
https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/1c896b21226115bf3eaf71a5d60369e1/tumblr_nbqwkgCkGb1qznhs5o1_500.jpg
― mookieproof, Sunday, 14 September 2014 01:31 (ten years ago) link
impartial BBC currently speculating on the Queen's opinion
― Daphnis Celesta, Sunday, 14 September 2014 18:52 (ten years ago) link
i feeling is that yes will win and that it won't be a marginal victory. my prediction is that yes will win by 56% to 44%.
― Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Sunday, 14 September 2014 22:39 (ten years ago) link
my*
― Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Sunday, 14 September 2014 22:40 (ten years ago) link
Other way round I'd say
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Monday, 15 September 2014 10:02 (ten years ago) link
too close to call, would be "fun"
― Ludo, Monday, 15 September 2014 10:49 (ten years ago) link
literal dead heat would be pure joeks
― intelligent, expressive males within the greater metropolitan (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 15 September 2014 11:14 (ten years ago) link
Scottish equiv. of hanging chads - hingin' chads, i suppose. Didn't they make a complete bollocks of the last elections to the Scottish Parliament?
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Monday, 15 September 2014 11:27 (ten years ago) link
I'm coming round to the idea that a yes vote for Scotland could be a serious win for the Conservatives. Mark Millar (the comics guy) posted on his FB about how he was now undecided and leaning towards no (while, coincidentally, still being painted as a definite yes) and he made a seemingly ludicrous assertion:
But again, can we please stop this dumbed down notion that independence would mean NO MORE TORIES? Or that Scotland never gets the government we voted for and this is why we need to cut ourselves off from Westminster? First of all, Scotland has had the government it voted for over thirteen of the past seventeen years. Two of the last three British Prime Ministers have been Scottish. Even the Thatcher years, a time not traditionally associated with right wing votes in Scotland, the Conservative share of the vote was within a whisker of Labour’s in both 1979 and 1983. Looking back over the forties, fifties and much of the sixties Scotland OVERWHELMINGLY backed the Conservatives and Conservative support here is rock solid all the way back to the Whig-era in the middle of the nineteenth century. The notion that Scotland is any less right wing than England is a complete fallacy.
So I did the sort of thing I usually do, and checked the facts. And although he overplays the hand more than a little he's not wrong in principle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland#UK_Parliament.2C_Westminster
1945: Lab 47.9% of vote, 52% of seats; Con 40.3% of votes, 38% of seats1950: Lab 46.2% of vote, 52% of seats; Con 44.8% of vote, 44% of seats1951: Lab 47.9% of vote, 49% of seats; Con 48.6% of votes, 49% of seats1955: Lab 46.7% of vote, 48% of seats; Con 50.1% of vote, 51% of seats1959: Lab 46.7% of vote, 54% of seats; Con 47.3% of votes, 44% of seats1964: Lab 48.7% of vote, 61% of seats; Con 40.6% of vote, 34% of seats1966: Lab 49.9% of vote, 65% of seats; Con 37.6% of votes, 28% of seats1970: Lab 44.5% of vote, 62% of seats; Con 38% of vote, 33% of seats1974 #1: Lab 36.6% of vote, 56% of seats; Con 32.9% of votes, 30% of seats1974 #2: Lab 36.6% of vote, 58% of seats; Con 24.7% of vote, 23% of seats1979: Lab 41.6% of vote, 62% of seats; Con 31.4% of votes, 31% of seats1983: Lab 35.1% of vote, 57% of seats; Con 28.4% of vote, 29% of seats1987: Lab 42.4% of vote, 69% of seats; Con 24% of votes, 14% of seats1992: Lab 39% of vote, 68% of seats; Con 25.6% of vote, 15% of seats1997: Lab 45.6% of vote, 78% of seats; Con 17.5% of votes, 0% of seats2001: Lab 43.3% of vote, 77% of seats; Con 15.6% of vote, 0% of seats2005: Lab 39.5% of vote, 69% of seats; Con 15.8% of vote, 0% of seats2010: Lab 42% of vote, 69% of seats; Con 16.7% of votes, 0% of seats
Now whereas they're not going to win any election soon a move to proportional representation (or even the current Scottish parliament model) in an independent Scotland would see them return to a position of relative influence and be the kingmaker in a hung parliament in the short term; in the longer term with a bit of rebranding and when the SNP become just another party I think there are votes to be won as Scotlnad becomes two-party. It's only in the Blair era they started to fall away seriously; and just as Thatcher will inevitably become something only old people talk about it's not inconceivable that the choice of a new generation could be Tory.
― and she's crying in a stairwell in Devon (aldo), Monday, 15 September 2014 13:09 (ten years ago) link
Yep, I think they would have greater influence again. Separating them from the Westminster party (and its toxic brand) would also allow Scottish Tories to move more to the Left and better appeal to the centre ground in Scotland. Just as Labour in Westminster has to be (or feels it has to be) more rightwards than it would naturally be.
― stet, Monday, 15 September 2014 13:31 (ten years ago) link
And in the 2010 election, there were 412,855 Scottish votes for the Tory party - not many fewer than the 491,386 for the SNP.
― Alba, Monday, 15 September 2014 13:53 (ten years ago) link
Scotland has a fine tradition of importing its right wing blowhards to England - to the Tory Party or the media or both - let's hope that is not adversely affected by a Yes vote.
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Monday, 15 September 2014 13:59 (ten years ago) link
I'm still lost on how Scotland is already a country.
If Scotland wins independence, would it become a constituent country like Australia or Canada? Would there be a border patrol set up at Gretna?
And lol @ "the better Scandinavian countries".
― pplains, Monday, 15 September 2014 13:59 (ten years ago) link
A constituent country? Whassat?
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Monday, 15 September 2014 14:00 (ten years ago) link
― stet, Monday, September 15, 2014 9:31 AM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yeah what youd see is prob a realignment with distinct scottish parties
― lag∞n, Monday, 15 September 2014 14:00 (ten years ago) link
I assume everyone is aware that the old nickname for the SNP was the Tartan Tories?
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Monday, 15 September 2014 14:01 (ten years ago) link
Something I read during my extensive late-night research on the topic at Wikipedia.org.
― pplains, Monday, 15 September 2014 14:02 (ten years ago) link
Ah, just did the same, Aus and Canuckia are not constituent countries though?
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Monday, 15 September 2014 14:03 (ten years ago) link
Whoops, the four countries of the United Kingdom are "constituent" countries.
― pplains, Monday, 15 September 2014 14:03 (ten years ago) link
Australia, et. al are your run-of-the-mill constitutional monarchies.
― pplains, Monday, 15 September 2014 14:04 (ten years ago) link
I assume that will be Scotland's fate as they're sticking with the ghastly Windsors
― FYI Macedonia (Tom D.), Monday, 15 September 2014 14:05 (ten years ago) link
I mean, Texas was a country before it joined the union, but we don't call it a country anymore. (They do, but that's a whole other deal.)
― pplains, Monday, 15 September 2014 14:05 (ten years ago) link