the scottish independence referendum

I think the Daily Show segment I saw on this didn't really help by talking about it in the same breath as countries gaining independence from the British empire, where Scotland and England were by contrast joined by an act of union. The word "independence" has all those connotations, which makes the wording of the referendum look all freedom-loving and positive.

I assume everyone is aware that the old nickname for the SNP was the Tartan Tories?

was that not coined by the labour party because the SNP helped bring down the labour govt. for shafting them over the devo referendum?

It seems to me that up in Scotland the best way to win votes is to paint the opposition as "tories" even if they have no policies in common. Especially in a country known for "voting for a monkey in a red rosette".

The Labour party have far more in common with the tories when it comes down to it and that explains why so many of you trad labour guys are voting yes to escape it.

I had an uncle who once called the SNP as scottish national protestants.
why do scots love sectarianism so much?

If there is a Yes, the post-mortem is going to be pretty damning on Cameron both for agreeing to a single question *and* for the wording of that question. Xp to Alba

http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/banknoteapp/img/clyde20.jpg

putting putin on the money doesnt make me feel better abt this

Countries: It's taken me a while to get my head around Parliament – the one in Westminster – as the legislature for the United Kingdom of Great Britain, but the UKGB is run by the queen of one of those countries. Like if NAFTA was a real place, but was always ruled by the Emperor of Mexico?

But you gotta have your own currency or else you look funny.

http://nongsride.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/tumblr_m6canmQSIE1qawmj6o1_400.jpg

Except for you, Ecuador. You guys get a pass.

The Union of the crowns came before the Act of union, pp. England's royal line ended, so it took the Scots King James.

I know I sound like a certain ILXor from one of the better Scandinavian countries, so I'll pipe down.

was that not coined by the labour party because the SNP helped bring down the labour govt. for shafting them over the devo referendum?

... the Tartan Tories, that is. I'm not sure, I thought a lost of the early shakers and movers in the SNP (people like Winnie Ewing and Gordon Wilson) were fairly right wing? Also, early on, they seemed to have a lot of support in areas that probably voted Tory previously, rural areas.

I'm sure some tories cant bring themselves to vote Labour and vice versa.
SNP certainly are to the left of Labour in my lifetime. Why did the Tories win so many seats in Scotland until the 1950s when the Labour Party was formed BY a Scot? I find that odd. Were the tories not that extreme until Thatcher or is there some weird reason that Scots voted tory like sectarianism? The reason I ask is because whenever Scots tories have ever appeared on TV they always call themselves Conservative & Unionist Party.

Winnie Ewing was for a while the MP for Hamilton, a place where you'd be hard pressed to find any Tories. The only Tory area round that way would be the fancier parts of Bothwell (Silverwells etc.).

The Tories in Scotland were called the Unionist party until the 1950s, yep.

the "Unionist" bit in the Conservative party's name derives from Anglo-Irish politics but it's not like that has had no influence in Scotland. the Conservatives have also always had big support in rural areas - a lot of Scotland is/was rural areas. and the pre-1979 Tory party was radically different to the post-79 party but not in all the ways you might expect

feels like in particular the early roll-out of the Poll Tax has been used as a Bloody Sunday-esque rallying point for Scot Nats

would Scottish Gaelic become an official language of an independent Scotland?

pondering what sort of impact on other regions of the UK a "No" vote followed by Devo Max powers will have

probably sets a more feasible/useful precedent for bits of england at least

i can see it stoking a case, yeah, but i can also see central gov resisting concessions to other regions pretty hard

I don't hold out much hope, I'm just waiting for the EU to swallow up the whole island

well let's consider the Tories riding to an overall majority next year on the back of a Scottish "No" vote and a shitty opposition, then holding a referendum on EU membership, then...

First of all, Scotland has had the government it voted for over thirteen of the past seventeen years.

Interesting period to choose, in that it starts immediately after 18 straight years of Tory rule during which their support in Scotland dropped from 31 to 17%.

It's fairer to say Scotland often gets the government it voted for, but only when England agrees.

Cant see devo max happening since none of the parties promised it even in the panic. Once Scotland votes no you will see tory and labour mp's real colours and they wont want their powers taken from them at Westminster and Labour doesn't want to lose Scots mp's votes on English matters so they wont give Scotland meaningful powers. The power to remove bedroom tax seems to be the only one on offer. Is that enough to bribe them to vote no?

It's fairer to say Scotland often gets the government it voted for, but only when England agrees.

Postwar, if we have to break it down in this way, Scottish voters got the government they, but not England, voted for in 1951, 1964, 1974 and 2005.

the "Unionist" bit in the Conservative party's name derives from Anglo-Irish politics but it's not like that has had no influence in Scotland.

For a start, where d'you reckon we got Unionists from?

ha, yeah I had a hunch about that one.

http://i.imgur.com/GBPnUOV.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Unionist_Party

"Can we please stop this dumbed down notion that independence would mean NO MORE TORIES?...The notion that Scotland is any less right wing than England is a complete fallacy."

The thing is, it's all very well talking about how strong the Tories were in Scotland in the 50s, 60s, even (relatively speaking) during the Thatcher years, but the figures upthread clearly show that in every election in the last 20 years the Tories have barely got 1 in 6 votes in Scotland and Labour has two or three times as many as the Tories. Which seems to show quite convincingly that Scotland is less right wing than England and that the Tories aren't going to sweep to power there any time soon.

Why did the Tories win so many seats in Scotland until the 1950s when the Labour Party was formed BY a Scot?

That's not that great a reason.

These guys think everyone will be living on £10 giros if the monarchy is removed.
One hopes they're not representative of a large part of the Scottish electorate
What does "we are the people" mean?

http://youtu.be/pmGjiokfQ2A

But independence isn't for the next 20 years, it's for good. I don't agree with the idea that one nation can be intrinsically more leftwing than another.

x-post

nations have different social and political traditions that map onto the left-right spectrum and mean some are less likely to be, say, instinctive free marketeers than others

basic example: mainstream politics in the US and most of western Europe can't really be conceptually mapped onto one another, no US tradition of important Social Democratic parties etc

As far as excluding Devo-Max from the poll, I can;t think of any other choice. After such a vote the question of Scotland's independence would still be unanswered, and another referendum inevitable. It has to be settled, one way or another.

When it comes to questions like that I'd have expect basic political self-preservation instincts to kick in and at least punt it 10-15 years down the road. (By which time there'd be less oil and less NHS to worry about anyway)

think "strychnine" is v. wrong about lack of concessions following a No vote

Tories aren't going to sweep to power there any time soon.

It might not be the Tories, but when you've got 61% of people in Scotland saying there need to be tougher rules in allowing immigration from other EU countries (74% when you exclude don't knows), for example, there'll be politicians who can fill gaps.

yeah, but they'll have a different name!

But immigration is supposed to increase in an independent Scotland, that's the one thing all sides agree on. It's only the size of the increase that's in doubt I think. No say it needs another Edinburgh every 5 years, Yes say every 10?

Tell that to the population!

We could use another Edinburgh. It gets busy at weekends.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

tenderhooks

Alba, it's fairly clear that all the Tory voters disappeared like morning mist over the last 15 years. There's just no basis for speculating on what new policies might energise the future of the SNP, to whom we can all wish good cheer as they celebrate their 15th year.

They didn't all disappear: first past the post makes it look like that, but as I said upthread, they got 412,855 Scottish votes in the 2010 election, to the SNP's 491,386.

My general point, though, is just that this is for ever (probably). People seem to be saying "oh, the 1950s was years ago" like a nation's political journey is now over and its leftwing leaning set in stone. I've even heard people trying to persuade people to vote yes on the grounds that they think the Tories will probably get in 2015, like the next fucking general election is a reason to split from the rest of the UK. There are arguments I respect for independence, but that is not one of them.

Seeing no further than who wins the next election is just the usual horse race type of thinking, but presumably, if Scottish Tories ever win control of the Scottish Parliament, then it's because they did very well in the preceding election. Which is why you have elections, innit?

People seem to be saying "oh, the 1950s was years ago" like a nation's political journey is now over and its leftwing leaning set in stone.

It's not really a like-for-like comparison here. The Unionists of the 1950s that were popular in Scotland are not the modern Conservatives. The 1950 manifesto included commitments to build much more social housing, to keep the nationalised coal industry, to maintain Fisheries protectionism and increase home rule in Scotland (but it did promise to stop any further nationalisation). That manifesto would probably find a lot of support in Scotland even today.

What has never had significant support in Scotland is free-market Thatcher and post-Thatcher Conservatism. It's not so much that Scotland changed and moved away from England, it feels more like the opposite, and Westminster might have started to go places where 50.01% of Scots don't want to follow.

On the rUK side of things, this is fascinating:

Without those bloody Scotch MPs, a number of Westminster votes would have turned out for the better. (A surprisingly small number of votes, right enough)

Er link

persuade people to vote yes on the grounds that they think the Tories will probably get in 2015

while the latest scottish labour no letter to voters signed by johann lamont and gordon brown consists mainly of a list of supposed SNP policy gaps as a reason to vote no (if you don't know)

there's as much equation of independence with SNP as there is union with the tories

Err, I'm not ranking the two campaigns here – the No campaign is fucking awful. I'm talking about whether Scotland should be independent.

Good piece from Billy Bragg

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

I know you're not backing the no campaign alba! just saying yes there's a stramash of skewed representations designed to motivate from individuals and campaigns alike that some voters will hear as salient and convincing alas