the scottish independence referendum

also disingenuous of A Salmond to say "hey guys vote yes everything will be cool" when exactly these kind of questions remain unanswered

but also speaks to the incompetence of the "no" campaign that they aren't able to make these points stick (by and large) and the fact that Cameron botched making the terms of the referendum clear to begin with, allowing SNP & friends to monopolise the "message of hope" type stuff. Salmond is the canniest political operator in the (lol) UK in the last 30yrs, with the possible exception of Gerry Adams.

LOL @ 'Britain' and 'Britishness' though, fundamentally

also disingenuous of A Salmond to say "hey guys vote yes everything will be cool" when exactly these kind of questions remain unanswered

What's the honest answer, though? "vote Yes for the unknown because the people who can answer these questions will just keep refusing to do so until they have to"?

Accepting that there are unknowns may be uncomfortable but I think it's fair to make a decision taking those unknowns into consideration.

Alex Salmond may not be in any position of power next year so his answers may not mean anything anyway. The "white paper" isn't really a White Paper - it's an SNP manifesto for an indy Scotland election.

Also unknown: what, if any, new powers will be devolved to Scotland post-no and post-2015 GE.

also unknown: will there be a referendum on uk membership of eu and if so what would be the outcome and many other things

English MP's will make feelings known on that after the result
xp

I assume if there's a No vote there's a good chance of the Labour Party getting murdered at the General Election - in Scotland - thus making a Tory victory more likely?

I don't get how UK elections work when you have two or three parties that everyone seems to hate

That's democracy for you!

lol how is that different from the U.S.

We tend to hate all of them except the ones who could never win.

They're politicians. It makes sense.

There's at least one more party to hate (xp)

lol how is that different from the U.S.

― pplains, Wednesday, September 17, 2014 9:33 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk I guess the well-attested problems of the US two-party system make their inevitability seem more explicable; in like the Israeli Knesset you at least have a dozen or so parties that everyone hates.

If we really do hate these parties whether in Israel, the U.S or Britain, we're not doing much to show it.

Uh, hello, Scottish independence?

the last few weeks have highlighted how decrepit and risible the current constitutional settlement is

would truly be music to my ears if there were more general cognizance of this (with accompanying disquiet) as a result of the referendum

xpBeing the exception

sorry if this has been answered but can't see that it has

One more question: after partition, were people in Northern Ireland entitled to have an Irish passport instead of / as well as a British one (e.g. a nationalist born in Derry before Ireland was split in two and who considered himself Irish, not British)?

And if they were, is that still true today?

And if it is still true today, does that mean a footballer from Belfast could choose if they want to play for Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland?

Yeah, but I wouldn't use football as the model given yr Townsends, Cascarinos and so forth.

Polls now saying 51/49 in favour of No.

and now shetland might go it alone post-yes vote?

^ at least in the event of there being a lot of shetland poll naes

how come Cameron isn't threatening to invade if Scotland votes for independence

I mean, that's how we roll over here in 'Merica

I'm really hoping there'll be little or no violence this week. Especially if there is a No result.

I saw comedian Stephen Carlin on tv recently, talking about how despite the reputation for violence, we haven't had many riots compared to England.

Is knife crime less popular? I don't hear about it much these days.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxwTq0-IEAIySZa.jpg

Terry O'Neil, 55, was stunned to see a piece of chicken in his KFC fillet feast resemble Britain - but without Scotland

the colonel has voted

the only bit of Europe you can see is garbage

how come Cameron isn't threatening to invade if Scotland votes for independence

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, September 17, 2014 6:17 PM (38 minutes ago)

I mean, that's how we roll over here in 'Merica

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, September 17, 2014 6:17 PM (38 minutes ago)

not a bad question actually -- our view of which secession attempts are legit and which aren't (ukraine, bosnia, kosovo, et al) tends to be inconsistent to say the least.

People are dismissing the defence concerns with "who's going to attack Scotland?" without thinking about being a small oil-rich nation next door to a nuclear superpower.

lol

Back in 2003 some kids from my highschool were marching on the street chanting: 'Alaska, Iraq, Norway will be next'

as well as presumably continuing to build uk warships and possibly host some of the uk submarine fleet? xps

Alaska?

xp

Oil-rich area overtaken by the US.

We may or may not have been mediocre at history.

i don't know enough to have a solid opinion about the decision, but i'm eagerly anticipating the outcome of this vote
have also been enjoying hearing all the scottish voices on the radio
yesterday npr talked to a bagpipe player from glasgow :)

worst scum of the universe, those bagpipe players

gyac - thanks for those belated answers

how many times am i going to greet the-morra?

poll?

i gret four times the day.

Andy Murray says he's decided to vote Yes because of "no campaign negativity last few days". I still can't believe that anyone consciously votes on something this important as a reaction to how a campaign has been handled.

Good timing though.

I thought she was Canadian?

i would have thought he'd be responding to general negativity, rather than specifically about the handling of the campaign, which seems quite legitimate. they've all said, we have one chance and it won't be given to us again, perhaps he thought it's best to grasp that opportunity. what can any of us do? we're not economists and even the economists (even the reasonably impartial ones) disagree so wildly that we're all taking a stab in the dark. to my mind there is NO WAY i can allow the status quo to continue which it will if i X on the NO box. who am i kidding - the status quo is the best i can expect if i X NO, there is much much worse on the horizon, and those who are rising genuinely hate the scots.

sorry i tried to redraft that and it got garbled.

there is much much worse on the horizon, and those who are rising genuinely hate the scots.

well, that parts def pretty negative, who's rising?

gingerists

Boris Johnson, of course. Theresa May. Ukip is rising not so much as a force in itself but as an influence on the tories, i believe.

It's not really the economic arguments that would convince me to be a No voter, jed. It's that I'm deeply suspicious of separatism as a route to escaping rightwing government, both in practical terms, and in terms of the "looking after your own" aspects of it. But many better-educated people than me have wrestled with this and come out for Yes, and I'm respectful of their intentions. I am lucky in that what I want and expect out of this referendum is the same thing, though I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that I wish it hadn't taken place at all.

oh i know you love scotland, you've spent so long here, but i can't really parse some of that:

I am lucky in that what I want and expect out of this referendum is the same thing

are you saying you expect yes to lose and want it? because i think you may be surprised. maybe you mean something else though.

I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that I wish it hadn't taken place at all.

why not? and for whose sake do you wish that?

are you saying you expect yes to lose and want it? because i think you may be surprised. maybe you mean something else though.

That's what I mean, yes.

why not? and for whose sake do you wish that?

Because for a while I believed in the "what a wonderful flowering of political debate" line and of course there has been, but I wonder, in the event of a No vote, what that energy will become. I dearly hope it will continue to drive political engagement, but I worry that it will make people more resentful, feel more disenfranchised. And I worry that the smash-bang-wallop appeal of an independence referendum will make normal politics seem a waste of time. There's much that's wrong with everyday politics, but there's much that's important and valuable too. And then there's the question of the divisiveness. Without being up there, I can only go on other people's reports (both friends' and media) about the resentment felt by Yes voters towards No voters, but if No prevails, I just hope whatever wounds there are don't fester.

resentment would be equally felt by no campaigners in the result of a yes win surely. Its not that long since letter bombs were sent by bigoted loonies up there. One would hope that loonies on either side will stick to being armchair warriors.