the scottish independence referendum

there do seem to be enough people in the central belt of scotland for whom life is miserable indeed

Many of whom will be voting for the first time ever - or that's what we're told, I hope they do but I can see the turnout being not as big as predicted

Can you imagine if poor people voted all over the UK? Wow, hold on to your hats, if not your seats.

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 20h
Wow. Edinburgh council says 89.6% of postal votes have been returned. That's massive. #indyref http://bit.ly/ZpOZMk

Rebecca Gray ‏@Rebecca__Gray 4h
By 10am, 18.5% of Scots had voted! Huge turnout. #indyref http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/u/indyref-live-vote.18092014718

big turnout as expected

― lag∞n, Thursday, September 18, 2014 10:25 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

on track

Alba, you don't seem to be particularly keen on democracy atm.

tbf democracy is bad

I'm fine with democracy, and of course wish Scotland well whatever the result.

Oh, do you mean my comment about large scale movements? I just mean I'm naturally squeamish about sloganeering and "come on let's be positive and stop overthinking things" type mentality, even though part of me thinks that's just something I have to suck up as long as it doesn't veer into totalitarianism.

a combination of - i wish this had never happened & the 50% issue as well as that but really i was just being daft.

argument for democracy being bad seems to be reinforced somewhat by the spectrum of reasons ppl are giving for voting on this particular occasion.

not claiming that my reasoning would be any less spurious or half-assed if i were to vote of course.

Is Scotland going to join the Euro or will they be getting their own Scotto? (maybe with something from this album http://www.scott-o.com/ as the anthem?)

Jed: oh, well the "wish this had never happened" thing (in the event of a No vote, really) is more a pragmatic thing about my fears about how a loss would affect enthusiastic Yes supporters and maybe the nation's psyche. But I do in more general terms reject the idea that it's undemocratic to not always want referendums. I mean, I'm not an expert on democratic systems at all, but I think most of us aren't advocating referendums as a primary tool of democracy, it's just the argument about when they're appropriate and when they aren't.

As for the 50% thing, I wasn't really arguing in favour of a supermajority hurdle – I haven't thought enough about it. It just did strike me as a kind of bad start for a country if nearly half of its inhabitants voted not to have it become independent. Yes, you can look at it vice versa.

Is Scotland going to join the Euro or will they be getting their own Scotto?

The Jeez-o

I suppose the reason I don't think it's as bad vice versa, and I may be wrong about this, is that I think of the people voting Yes, many are voting for it as a means to an end, not because they fundamentally don't like the idea of being in union with the other parts of the UK. For a start, many may well have preferred devo-max if that was on the ballot paper.

It just did strike me as a kind of bad start for a country if nearly half of its inhabitants voted not to have it become independent. Yes, you can look at it vice versa.

― Alba, Thursday, September 18, 2014 7:05 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I guess in the past, it was very different (with imperialism/expansionism being the norm) and these are different times, but that kind of interests me.

many may well have preferred devo-max if that was on the ballot paper.

And people still think Cameron should keep his job after this fiasco?

Fuck me, the brother has changed his mind AGAIN and voted Yes!

It just did strike me as a kind of bad start for a country if nearly half of its inhabitants voted not to have it become independent.

― ∞, Thursday, September 18, 2014 2:09 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah that's one the basic ideas behind Canada's clarity act.

One of my more trivial concerns about this referendum is that I won't feel comfortable wearing a t-shirt for my favourite prog rock band Yes. A lot of people will think I'm obsessed with the referendum after it has passed, and the Roger Dean designs would just make me seem all the weirder.

Yeah, I haven't been wearing my two ISIS t-shirts for a couple of months either now.

I was going to joke about this but I'm too late:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/dot-scot-internet-domain-given-go-ahead-1-3140723

ha xp

any word on when we'll know the final results?

6-8 am

they will declare a winner before counts are finished if it's mathematically impossible for the other side to have won but individual regions results will be declared as they happen.

if it's as close as predicted then it might take time, no?

http://election.pressassociation.com/Declaration_times/scotland_ref_2014_by_time.php

If the central belt counts fast enough we can ignore the Republic of Shetland.

well done FYI Macedonia's bro

To be honest, I'd prefer they waited till all the votes were just counted then a fat man just appeared on telly at 7am, opened an envelope and said "yes" or "no".

Gilliam sketch to deliver result using portrait of liz

xp the envelope should be deep-fried imho

Think Aberdeen are the last to declare? So mathematical decisions might be difficult - if it were Orkney, maybe.

Is Scotland going to join the Euro or will they be getting their own Scotto?

The Jeez-o

The Beano.

The stereotypo?

i'm gonna post this in the board game thread too but it's kinda relevant here i think and also looks cool:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/09/18/like_stratego_with_more_bagpipes_scotland_independence_referendum_hammer_of_the_scots

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/golf/it-s-a-yes-in-scotland-st-andrews-votes-to-allow-women-golfers-1.1933985

Would there be a seperate Amazon for an indepedant Scotland? What does southern Ireland use?

oh don't even ask it was fuckin nightmarish for a while there. think its OK now.

in de pedant Scotland they would point out it's spelt "separate"

How I voted is between me and the ballot box, but I've cracked open a beer and am a little overcome at, y'know, democracy and the opportunity to settle such a matter peacefully and without violence.

if there are no exit polls how about private ones done by both campaigns? Any news from those?

There was a very bored-looking No campaigner outside my polling station going "please? can I *try* and change your mind?" to all heading in.

stiglitz are particularly convincing because they are speaking in generalities from afar

the scottish government set up a council of economic advisers, a widely-sourced group of international economists, and it had a subgroup (the fiscal commission working group) do an audit of scotland's economy, you can scroll down here for their papers:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/topics/economy/council-economic-advisers/fcwg

afaik, no other country has ever done this & they have been publishing research for some time now

economists who have all been operating at a global level -- IMF, OECD, world bank etc -- and whose work on scotland is just 1 small part of wide ranging careers. the only skin in the game they have is their professional reputations.

the group includes two nobel prize winners, an ex-tutor of carney, and the economist who correctly forecast the exact cause and nature of the 2007/8 crash (stiglitz). only one of them, a new zealander, has any other connection to scotland

cozen!

the problem with the stiglitz piece from the other day is that its just a reiteration of his general political economy

The fundamental issue facing Scotland is different. It is clear that there is, within Scotland, more of a shared vision and values – a vision of the country, the society, politics, the role of the state; values like fairness, ­equity and opportunity. Of course, not everyone in the country agrees on the precise policies, on the delicate balancing of complicated trade-offs. But the Scottish vision and values are ­different from those that have become dominant south of the Border.

and the dismissal of the critical importance of currency arrangements as being merely a technical non-sequitur

Another example of a non-issue is the currency. There are many currency arrangements that would work. Scotland could continue using sterling – with or without England’s consent. (The argument that if it were done without their consent, Scotland would have no say in monetary policy is hardly convincing: even if it had some voice, monetary policy would be dominated by England.)

the difference between formal and informal currency union is surely the presence of a lender of last resort

the chrakabortty piece is better because it affirms that an independent scotland is a feasible prospect but it doesn't dismiss the possibilities for hardship in the interim and also provides some scepticism about whether the stiglitz dream of a more equitable society is likely

bookies odds for Yes have been lengthening all day, from 4-1 to 9-1 or more

http://i.imgur.com/uJ16Lqr.png

lol grauniad

just spoke with a campaigning yes friend of mine on the phone and he predicts a yes landslide

yougov fella saying 54-46 for no, claiming "99% certainty" of result

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

xpost ahhh grauniad getting it twisted

ah well, at least the voters can say they gave it 110%

http://i.imgur.com/8WO0Lcs.jpg

good luck scotland