the scottish independence referendum

I was born in England to English parents but we moved to Scotland when I was a baby and I've lived here all my life. I voted yes but I don't feel either fully Scottish or fully English, I feel British. I'm disappointed that the no camp won but part of me would have been sad to see the end of Britain (despite all the UK nationalist right wing shite)

idg non-nationalist fascists? (n. ireland aside)

Leaving N. Ireland aside is about the last thing you can do in this instance. Better to call these people Loyalists rather than Unionists I think, I can think of a lot more things I could call them. Nazi salutes? Nice.

the nazis were also in favor of keeping britain together right

Loyalists claim to do "red hand" salutes that just happen to look a bit Nazi.

seems legit

nah, these were definitely nazi salutes from a small number of them. they were shouting incredibly racist stuff as they were doing them.

paolo, i feel british too, as well as scottish. i would still feel british if scotland had become independent.

lol my bad

"seems legit" is uh I think NV maybe I see using it a lot, but its shorthand "this does not seem legit" tbf I see how this might confuse

just hope that all neonazis in continental europe are now fully informed of the risk that they might be mistaken for loyalists

ha

but, just to emphasise, it was a very small number of them saluting, and hard to know for sure whether there weren't also SDL / BNP folk there jumping on the bandwagon.

This "red hand" salute is some new level of made-up bollocks, btw. Put a fucking red glove on or something if you want to make up some spurious salute that looks just like a nazi salute but isn't if you really want to make a distinction, eh?

Just to be clear, I did say "claim" as I know it's nonsense. I don't for a second see them as anything other than the cunts they are.

Aye, I know you know. I was basically (sort of) clarifying for our overseas friends, and ranting at the cnuts, even though the chances of said cnuts (1) reading this and (2) paying attention are fairly remote.

http://i.imgur.com/yHZIMN2.gif

this campaign was still a success
salmond leaves 'frontline politics' (supposedly) as the most successful uk politician since thatcher
a host of promises that morally bind all of three parties in westminster
they are either honoured or they become the foundation for a betrayal narrative that catalyzes the next stage of the independence movement

not sufficiently bothered to graph it but if the result that obtained in every district was adjusted to the average turnout %, this must have been near 50/50

Reading a mate's facebook, turns out a red hand salute is a thing and in no way affiliated to Nazi salutes. It has an entirely different hand angle, apparently. I'm too scared to ask further.

So is this supposedly, hah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quenelle_%28gesture%29

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29314400

though he missed a trick by not filming the episode where he went into a branch of william hill and asked to put 400 grand on that

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/29/nicola-sturgeon-scottish-veto-eu-referendum/print

Bit of a curveball from Der Sturgeon there

She was even more explicit on Today this morning. She clearly stated she found the notion that any country could be better off taking themselves out of a bigger organisation, with all the economic and political advantages which "naturally and obviously" came through pooled resources and trading concessions, "absolutely ludicrous" and not something she could ever get behind.

The ideal person to lead the SNP then.

Plz to state the economic and political advantages of Scotland remaining part of the UK as it stands right now?

Plz to state the economic and political advantages of Scotland the UK remaining part of the UK EU as it stands right now?

Her point was they it was "naturally and obviously" conferred by being part of something bigger, that they MUST exist and they would be lost by cutting yourself off from pooled resources and existing trade.

During the EU referendum the British/English Right will be using essentially the same arguments they were fiercely against in the Scottish independence referendum. The whole thing is basically incoherent.

That cuts both ways though, as aldo says. SNP is basically arguing for a Union but not with England.

I do think Sturgeon has a point that it's essentially unfair for England to drag Scotland out of Europe but it's arguably just as unfair as Glasgow and Dundee dragging Edinburgh out of the UK.

That's exactly my opinion, equality of argument needs to trump all. If you say we're better together (and Ms Sturgeon went through several linguistic hurdles to avoid using those very words, although she did say "better as part of the same Union") then we are better together. It needs the coherence Matt alludes to. (Of course, the ConDem official position is that they do think we're better together in the EU but the referendum is because they're not entirely sure the nation agrees.)

If you say we're better together (and Ms Sturgeon went through several linguistic hurdles to avoid using those very words, although she did say "better as part of the same Union") then we are better together.

Sorry, but this is bollocks.

Yep, removing Scotland from the UK would not change the inter-EU trade it does with the rest of the UK. Removing Scotland from the EU would change the trade it does with the rest of the EU.

Recent polling seems to suggest the UK in general is becoming more amenable towards staying in the EU (and that the debate is generally low on most people's priority list). The rise of UKIP and the reams of press coverage they are generating is skewing that impression, but UKIP are also toxifying the debate and sending people the other way. It's also generating a disproportionate amount of attention because the Conservative Party and therefore the government is so divided and weak on the issue.

I am curious as to why Scotland is apparently so much more pro-EU than other parts of the country though.

Scotland has never been as anti-European as England, and that was true before the EU.

If Ms Sturgeon thought there was a more nuanced point to be made then perhaps she should have made it instead of talking about Gordon Brown and the No campaign, but her premise as broadcast was that being part of something bigger was inevitably and inherently more beneficial than not being in it.

I don't expect much in the way of nuance from Nicola Sturgeon tbh.

whether it was her intention to express herself in those terms or not, it's not much of an argument and not really relevant to independence vs EU membership

Yep, removing Scotland from the UK would not change the inter-EU trade it does with the rest of the UK

Assuming in this scenario the EU were to immediately admit Scotland, which is quite a big if.

Support for leaving the EU is almost as low London as it is in Scotland, so would London also get a right of veto? Problem solved in that case.

It's an entirely different beast to be tethered to though. I don't see a conflict there at all.

The point of Nicola Sturgeon's intervention was to highlight the fact that Scotland is not an equal partner in the UK. You've had your fun Scotland, now shut up and let the natural Westminster order be.

The EU is a different kind of union to the UK, so there's no contradiction in Sturgeon's independence in Europe position. The SNP wants to see Scotland as a normal European nation state, rather than a junior partner in an obsolete imperial construction.

If the UK is a democracy then of course Scotland isn't an equal partner, it's a 10% stake (roughly). Which is more or less the stake it has in Westminster, although the Scottish Conservative vote (11% at the last general election) doesn't have a voice in that. Or are you suggesting that Northern Ireland (population <2M, much less than, say, Greater Manchester) should also be fully equal partners in the UK with veto etc?

Nicola Sturgeon is.

the Scottish Conservative vote (11% at the last general election) doesn't have a voice in that

It's no wonder then that they are so wholeheartedly committed to some form of electoral reform which would better represent th.... uh, hold on.

Meanwhile, what's happening with Scottish LOLbour?

I don't think Sturgeon seriously thought Scotland would get a veto. She accepts Scotland is a junior partner to its larger neighbour, but the point of Sturgeon's intervention was to show who the real boss is and expose Better Together's rhetoric about a family of nations and the promises of more powers as so much hot air. Westminster walked right into her trap by slapping down any challenge to its authority. If we're partners, why are we being dictated to?
She's also trying to get people to think about how a federal UK might work - in which case Scotland, Wales and NI would by rights have to have some degree of veto. Obviously the differing populations can't mean Scotland or NI trumps the rUK, so you would have to have some kind of mechanism in place which would allow for a consensus to be reached. Bringing in cities is besides the point - the UK is not a union of cities.

Bringing in a federal UK besides the point - the UK isn't a federal structure.

"Applied to a uniform swing across all Scottish constituencies, this result would leave Labour with just four MPs in Scotland – a drop of 36 MPs. The SNP would go from six MPs to 54."

Jings, crivvens, etc.

Granted, the asymmetry of the union makes federalism a tricky one, but something's got to give, because the current set up just isn't working for Scotland, Wales or NI - or indeed the North of England. I don't claim to have any answers to that, but a UK wide constitutional discussion has got to happen.

x-post, that poll is very interesting. I doubt the Labour rout will be as extreme as that, but it'll hopefully shit them up north and south of the border. It suggests Scottish voters recognise that their votes don't count for much in UK elections and are no longer willing to vote for entitled right-wing Labour MPs in order to "keep the Tories out". It's not Scotland's job to bail the rUK out from a Tory government - after all, a Labour majority based on

oops, posted to early...

a Labour majority that relies on Scottish votes to beat an English Tory majority is pretty precarious. Anyway, these are arguments that came up during the referendum and I'm sure have been discussed on here. But it's interesting that they're still relevant to the current situation.

I'm not sure the system is working particularly well for anyone right now bar some people in the South of England, even London has its own unique problems that are being largely ignored by the main parties. A majority of the electorate favour policies (eg renationalisation of railways/utilities, higher wealth taxes) that aren't being proposed by any mainstream party, the entire political system is broken and it is largely Labour's fault for failing to provide proper opposition. I'm not sure this is even a uniquely Scottish thing, it's just that Scotland has older and better organised alternatives and outlets.

Jim Murphy is absolutely toxic. The fact that he's favourite to lead labour in Scotland is making a lot of SNP voters feel extremely happy.

i've never voted SNP btw but I will.