thread for contemplating the serious issues raised by the Men's Rights movement

wrong thread i think

wanted to post that in the leaked nude photos thread but i couldn't find it anymore, still think this is a good thread. 4chan is the worst place.

if 4chan had emma watson nudes, they'd be posted already. those guys are obsessed w/ her.

wasn't sure if this thread was right either but since it was kind of a reaction to her calling on men to stand w/women, i think it's kinda relevant to a degree?

this is extremely creepy/scary/wrong: http://www.emmayouarenext.com/

(safe for work as of september 23rd)

"lol" marketing
http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/21909/1/emma-watson-nude-photo-leak-outed-as-viral-marketing-hoax

idk who is trolling who at any point in this but it's all about the clicks like every other fucking thing on the internet

lol suppose you could call this a serious issue raised by the men's rights movement

Apparently the marketing company is also a hoax, created in part by this guy:

http://youtu.be/wVg1q0WkL_I

The emma watson harassment is revolting. Part of me wishes anonymity didn't exist on the internet and everyone had to stand by their words and actions. I know this would have undermined my james franco project but it seems like it would be a better system. How can we fight racist, sexist, and homophobic speech if nobody is held accountable?

Another, truer part of me thinks anonymity needs to be an option as it's been used in the past to promote marginalized, necessary viewpoints and also can be a useful literary tool. Still, it seems fruitless to constantly be pointing out how hateful people are being and then having them double down on their hatefulness in response.

I know this would have undermined my james franco project

FP

On the one hand, Internet anonymity has been used to harass and intimidate women, minorities and non-straight people for years.

On the other hand, Treship had this James Franco project going that he thought was cool.

Still, it seems fruitless to constantly be pointing out how hateful people are being and then having them double down on their hatefulness in response.

post that effortlessly summarizes etc

Yeah not for nothing but that's pretty much normal life.

I mean a world of things you could have pointed to and you went for your Franco project

sonned in a treeship ban

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html

When I was 16 a female classmate falsely accused me of sexual assault. It was a painful experience. I was eventually cleared. Her testimony changed, no one corroborated her story (she claimed it was public and happened during school), and she eventually admitted to perjury. She transferred to another school, went to college, and is successful. I was embarrassed and ashamed. I’m still embarrassed and ashamed. Why would someone try and wreck an anonymous person’s (we hadn’t spoken and I was shocked she knew my name) life? What if she succeeded? I don’t know. It’s still confusing and horrible. Nonetheless, I don’t own a fedora and I think most of this crap is crap.

I regret writing that

I think it must take a lot of courage to share that kind of thing in a public forum. I've had acquaintances share similar stories with me in private. Even though I'm attuned to the issue, I can't help but continue to wonder whether they actually committed the crime that they were accused of (and exonerated for).

There's so much internet harassment that is not anonymous, just disconnected. twitter is the prime example in that people will respond to things under their own names to strangers in revolting ways. When there's only a passing familiarity and the perceived ego boost outweighs concern for other people (because you don't know those people), people don't seem to care if they're anonymous until the backlash becomes real.

etaeoe, that is absolutely revolting what you went through, but more than anything it sounds like it was a cry for help on the part of your accuser and you were the completely undeserving victim of her acting out. I doubt she thought of you positively or negatively, just anonymously, and without really thinking of you as a person.

Thinking of others as people who are on an equal stance with your own agency no matter how different they may be in goals or outlook is difficult for the most self-confident, actualized people. For people who don't think much of their own humanity, it's worse.

eateoe, I hope you don't still regret writing that.

There's a controversy on librarian twitter (yes there is a librarian twitter) right now because a dude who speaks at a lot of library conferences is suing two female librarians who accused him on twitter of being a known sexual harasser for defamation. The women seem to be getting a lot of support (financial and emotional) but now some people are saying they feel forced to support them or face being ostracized. http://blogs.princeton.edu/librarian/2014/09/suing-librarians-damages/

It seems like if most campus rapes are happening in peer groups that encourage it, that's pretty useful information that we might want to somehow employ in preventing campus rapes. I don't really see how recognizing that is dangerous -- I'm not letting off the hook the "artsy" type who is also a rapist, nor suggesting that college me never had to check his own behavior just because he didn't live with a bunch of "bros." Everyone should learn where the lines are, everyone should be discouraged from these behaviors.

― 'arry Goldman (Hurting 2), Monday, August 18, 2014 1:04 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Dan, I think the atmosphere at my gigantic state U was probably a little different from *your school.*

― 'arry Goldman (Hurting 2), Monday, August 18, 2014 1:04 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And yet, there is still a pervasive rape problem on the campus of my school. It's almost as if there's a deeper problem here that can't just be blamed on the existence of fraternities...

― Star Gentle Uterus (DJP), Monday, August 18, 2014 1:13 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Reviving this topic because I saw this, which says that fraternity brothers are 3x more likely than their non-frat counterparts to commit rape on campus:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/24/rape-sexual-assault-ban-frats

I don't agree with the premise of "getting rid of frats" to solve the problem, because I don't really think the problem is the existence of frats but the culture within some frats -- a culture that can be found elsewhere too but just seems to exist significantly more often in frats. I think frats can be changed rather than destroyed as an institution, and plenty of frats already don't fit the mold that needs to be changed in the first place.

But I do think the point I was originally trying to make stands -- rape is significantly more likely when a certain ugly kind of male groupthink takes over and encourages it, and targeting that would help reduce rape.

I'm too lazy to read the article - how much controlling was done for the potential overlap between "belongs to a frat" and "is a member of one of the major men's sports teams" (football, basketball, baseball, lacrosse, soccer)?

none? who cares? toxic male groupthink can exist in frats just as easily as on sports teams but the latter are harder to ban and arguably have more value. ban frats.

toxic male groupthink exists in males

...who exist in groups who perpetuate and reinforce those ideas.

the group being "patriarchy"

there is literally no good argument for the existence of these mostly white, mostly privileged institutions. ilx is more than willing to call out sexism when some dork praises a female artist's appearance but when it comes to institutions that are literally incubators of sexual assault people get equivocal all of a sudden.

have you guys been inside of frats?

xp to NA, (and somewhat off topic), how is this dude a speaker at so many conferences on the future of libraries and his resume lists only one librarian job? (ps NA i am a librarian)

I'm not trying to be equivocal that fraternities are terrible, though I've never been inside one. But fixating on a frat and saying "ban frats to reduce campus rape" sort of smacks of "not-all-men" protestations and is an attempt to locate the nexus of the problem within some specific circumstance that one can consider oneself less complicit in. People are sexually assaulted at small and large schools, with or without frats, with or without pervasive cultures of heavy drinking. xp

xp lol, yes, I was a member of a frat in college. None of that ever went on because we were all dorks. The most "hazing" we ever experienced was having a carry around a brick with our name on it 24/7 during the week before initiation.

*having to carry

or maybe, silby, it's not about that at all and it's really about considering concrete steps that could be taken to actually reduce incidences of sexual assault

that's a very cool story phil

at my college the fraternities had terrible hazing policies that traumatized a person i knew. he dropped out of college and now he makes documentaries about his roommate. the sororities had even more insidious psychological hazing practices. nearly every woman on campus had some story about a time when she was at least made to feel uncomfortable at frat parties.

none? who cares? toxic male groupthink can exist in frats just as easily as on sports teams but the latter are harder to ban and arguably have more value. ban frats.

That's definitely the way to approach social science and policy issues: Who cares? I wish you great success!

xp Don't ask the question like you're trying to son me if you're going to get smugly stupid about the answer.

at my college the fraternities had terrible hazing policies that traumatized a person i knew. he dropped out of college and now he makes documentaries about his roommate.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/2481222/ahahaha-what-a-story-mark-o.gif

also because of their existence and the fact that they had the best houses they came to dominate social life on campus. these male dominated spaces (sororities didn't have houses) where nobody except "brothers" were made to feel fully comfortable. everything about it was awful.

i had friends who were in frats by the way and would even hang out at one or two semi-regularly to drink and smoke and listen to music. it's not about the people. but as institutions they were toxic as could be.

also, saying that frats by and large promote a worse, more exaggerated form of patriarchal values than some other institutions people could be a part of is not the same as saying that sexism doesn't exist across the culture as a whole. this doesn't even make sense.

I would be ok with banning fraternities without reference to whether they are incubators for rape culture, simply on the grounds that they demonstrably do more overall harm than good.

Treeship, you should check the numbers for sexual assault on campuses for countries that don't have frats, like France for example.

My alma mater did not allow off-campus housing, or any kind of separate housing , for Greek organizations. They had floors designated in otherwise regular residence halls.

xp there might be other complicating factors in france. if the rates there were the same or higher than in america, that doesn't mean that banning frats here couldn't still have a salutary effect.

obviously, it won't solve the issue but i think it might be a start.

You've made it clear that you don't care about "other complicating factors" already so

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2014/03/03/of-frats-rape-culture-and-tfm/

stumbled across that while trying to look up what percentage of frat brothers play varsity sports. whatever it is, i doubt it accounts for the 300% more likely to assault figure cited in the guardian piece hurting quoted. beyond that though, the degree to which frat culture is synonymous with sexism seems impossible to ignore. from the ms magazine piece:

For one thing, fraternities tend to enforce gender norms of men showing off their masculinity and power over women. Take the hot-spot website for fraternity members, totalfratmove.com. Popular columns such as “An Ode to Shackers” explain the all-too-common embarrassment felt when a frat brothers realizes he slept with a girl who was than a “10″ and not “anything to boast about,” but, hey, she was there, so why not?... The article explains:

You figure you might as well take advantage of the situation. You’re still a tad drunk, and some morning sex wouldn’t hurt. … Alright, sexually dissatisfy her and get her the hell home. Pronto.

The website also includes a wall that fraternity members can post to with the hashtag #TFM (total frat move). #TFMs include such gems as “Your friend having a ‘very important and private question’ for you as soon as the ugly girl starts talking to you,” or “Complimenting a pledge’s girlfriend on her cleavage.”

this is clearly a really great facet of our culture that needs to be preserved.

my call to ban frats might have been rhetorical. my main point is that they are a cancer on university life in america and something should be done to address this.

I really don't think the point I'm trying to make is #notallmen, I'm actually saying all men will probably be worse wrt to this if placed in a toxic culture and better if they are not. TBH I find the line of argument against what I am saying here kind of maddening, like what are we arguing for, original sin? If targeting institutions that are known to especially promote rape culture isn't a good way of mitigating rape culture, what is?

I don't intend to get all #notallfrats in here, because no, but it might help if your argument wasn't seemingly centered on what you've learned about frats from 80s comedies. I was not in a frat and actively avoided Greek life at my school (it was tough to escape sometimes at a Big Ten school - fwiw, the sororities DID have houses), but I was in studio classes with guys in frats that represented the complete opposite of what you describe.

xpost

because of their existence and the fact that they had the best houses they came to dominate social life on campus. these male dominated spaces (sororities didn't have houses) where nobody except "brothers" were made to feel fully comfortable. everything about it was awful.

i had friends who were in frats by the way and would even hang out at one or two semi-regularly to drink and smoke and listen to music. it's not about the people. but as institutions they were toxic as could be.

i am talking about what it was like at my mid-level liberal arts college in the northeast between the years 2007-2011