might wanna read that exchange over again
― J0rdan S., Friday, 17 April 2015 15:06 (nine years ago) link
Being unoppressed by the market realities of working for Gawker, I had time to read it twice before quoting it - what did I miss?
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 17 April 2015 15:26 (nine years ago) link
since we talked about it here:
choire sicha politely hands ronson his ass
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/books/review/jon-ronsons-so-youve-been-publicly-shamed.html
― goole, Friday, 17 April 2015 19:55 (nine years ago) link
"Vonnegut ranks among the most moral of male novelists writing in English." does this mean that he doesn't morally measure up when we include female novelists?
― Mordy, Friday, 17 April 2015 19:57 (nine years ago) link
It so happens that I have been ganged up on online, and I have also been beaten up by actual gangs of men on the street. The actual beating is — surprise! — exponentially worse. Eliding any difference between words and deeds may seem natural to a non-American like Ronson (many European nations have laws against hate speech), but it makes the continuing argument in this country about how to handle offensive language more challenging.
Jonah Lehrer isn’t actually annihilated, dead or even particularly injured. Not even a year after his alleged digital murder, he sold a book about love and mistakes, and while that one’s awaiting publication he has a co-authored book coming out this September. He is still only 33 years old, still represented by Andrew Wylie. Mike Daisey? Just completed a fresh run of evenings at Joe’s Pub! Jim McGreevey? Graduated from the General Theological Seminary, doin’ great. And Justine Sacco? Eh. . . .
― goole, Friday, 17 April 2015 19:57 (nine years ago) link
so, maura otm!
But there’s public mockery, and then there’s something worse. The experience of women online is the great link between speech and violence, between offense and abuse. For women — and for all gender offenders, from gays to trans people — insult and the threat of murder are issued simultaneously. Like almost every other book, then, “So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed” would probably have been handled better by a woman. Often we send a married, middle-aged man who makes $250,000 a year (half a million in a good year, apparently) to do the job. It’s fine! Ronson is a sweet and particularly talented man. But the actual problem with the Internet isn’t us hastily tweeting off about foolish people. The actual problem is that none of the men running those bazillion-dollar Internet companies can think of one single thing to do about all the men who send women death threats.
― goole, Friday, 17 April 2015 19:58 (nine years ago) link
so its the bazillionaire's fault
― am0n, Friday, 17 April 2015 20:28 (nine years ago) link
does this mean that he doesn't morally measure up when we include female novelists?
― Mordy, Friday, April 17, 2015 3:57 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
if you read the final paragraph, that is kind of what he's saying yes
― rob, Friday, 17 April 2015 20:33 (nine years ago) link
good article
― deej loaf (D-40), Friday, 17 April 2015 21:14 (nine years ago) link
when you think of it its actually harder for guys to morally measure up so more credit to guys that do I guess
― post you had fecund thoughts about (darraghmac), Friday, 17 April 2015 21:57 (nine years ago) link
"This book should have been written by a woman" is a hot take to build your book review around when it's not about women in any particular way.
― Matt Armstrong, Friday, 17 April 2015 23:26 (nine years ago) link
kidding!
it's fine!
Origins of the faux-naif bloggy voice?
― mookieproof, Friday, 17 April 2015 23:32 (nine years ago) link
Matt all books shd be written by women, just ask that guy
― sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Saturday, 18 April 2015 00:08 (nine years ago) link
u guys are too busy catching feelings to notice that his pt is the entire book has literally no perspective on the way planet earth operates
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 01:16 (nine years ago) link
Point might've come across if he hadn't written it like a breezy blog post
― sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Saturday, 18 April 2015 01:42 (nine years ago) link
tell us more about how the world really works, deej
― mookieproof, Saturday, 18 April 2015 01:45 (nine years ago) link
a breezy blogpost that several ilxors found most upsetting at the same time xp
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 01:46 (nine years ago) link
anyway isn't complaining about the tone of an argument u disagree with smarm 101
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 01:47 (nine years ago) link
the review doesn't make sense. it chides ronson for his "european" mistake of confusing speech with violence, but then ends by critcizing ronson's failure to demand "bazillionaires" do something about the misogynistic trolls because their speech is actually gendered violence.
i don't know where ronson stands on the bazillionaire's complicity, but surely you can make the argument that twitter needs to hold people accountable alongside ronson's argument, which is that there is something unseemly about "digging in" to someone caught in an embarrassing situation. maybe they even complement each other. maybe a culture that encourages demonization in the mainstream might also play a role in producing cretins like the gamergate trolls.
― Treeship, Saturday, 18 April 2015 01:48 (nine years ago) link
Not when the tone works against the arguments being made xp
― sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Saturday, 18 April 2015 01:51 (nine years ago) link
I don't think I disagree w the argument, I just think it's a badly written piece
― sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Saturday, 18 April 2015 01:53 (nine years ago) link
the free speech, euro/american divide angle in the review was really disingenuous. the book isn't about banning any kind of behavior. he is arguing that people should be more reflective about their social media behavior, especially because on the web it's easy to forget that behind bylines and twitter feeds there are human beings
― Treeship, Saturday, 18 April 2015 01:56 (nine years ago) link
'the internet' has ruined lives but, turns out, none of the people featured in this book. they all bounced right back. maybe they were 'shamed' but that doesn't seem to mean much in like 6 mos.
― goole, Saturday, 18 April 2015 02:08 (nine years ago) link
That's OK though, since most books are forgotten a month after publication.
― the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Saturday, 18 April 2015 02:24 (nine years ago) link
― Treeship, Friday, April 17, 2015 9:56 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
treesh u see awful clear what the book is about have you read it
― creaks, whines and trife (s.clover), Saturday, 18 April 2015 02:25 (nine years ago) link
i read the february new york times article condensed version
― Treeship, Saturday, 18 April 2015 02:28 (nine years ago) link
deej loaf (D-40)Posted: April 17, 2015 at 8:16:54 PMu guys are too busy catching feelings to notice that his pt is the entire book has literally no perspective on the way planet earth operates
Good catch the planet earth is totally the Internet wait right you are 12 right?
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 18 April 2015 02:38 (nine years ago) link
In case that was too obtuse, there are interesting points to be made about this, you are just too stupid to make them so maybe sit this one out.
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 18 April 2015 02:41 (nine years ago) link
cat calling the kettle feline
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 02:49 (nine years ago) link
the internet is on planet earth & so is encapsulated w/in 'the earth' i don't think i need to get more specific he spells it out pretty simply in the piece
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 02:50 (nine years ago) link
― sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Friday, April 17, 2015 8:53 PM (57 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
idk i wasn't grading it for style points particularly, more reading it for an argument, which i found compelling & reoriented a facile premise
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 02:51 (nine years ago) link
*the book's facile premise
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 02:52 (nine years ago) link
countdown to 'you just couldn't comprehend what i wrote'
xp there it is
― mookieproof, Saturday, 18 April 2015 02:53 (nine years ago) link
What? That doesn't = anything I said
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:08 (nine years ago) link
I love how you can tell which ppl don't actually think their fiercely argued opinions through on ilx bc so many of them are ready to kneejerk disagree w whatever I say
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:09 (nine years ago) link
sorry; subtle difference
i don't think i need to get more specific he spells it out pretty simply
― mookieproof, Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:12 (nine years ago) link
Mookie are u actually cosigning his "lol how could you confuse the Internet for planet earth" line of non-thinking? Or ur bored?
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:25 (nine years ago) link
He's making a point similar to jho's from yesterday and it's pretty clear for guys who like to throw "obtuse" around at ppl u don't know u sound pretty "obtuse"
The point is the examples he chose for this book are 1. Insanely selective and 2. Had few to no negative consequences
That his worry about what social media enables is totally losing the forest for the tree in front of him
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:28 (nine years ago) link
'He's making a point similar to jho's from yesterday and it's pretty clear for guys who like to throw "obtuse" around at ppl u don't know u sound pretty "obtuse"'
Uh
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:30 (nine years ago) link
My point is that you seem to think "not in line with how I think the Internet works" equals no idea of how the world works. Which is why I called you stupid:
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:33 (nine years ago) link
Also sentences like that one I just quoted
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:34 (nine years ago) link
No I think this is about how the world works, not just the Internet, so that was actually pretty intentional wording on my part
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:34 (nine years ago) link
That the threat of sexual violence is an aspect of how the world works, not just the Internet. Are u grasping this or
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:36 (nine years ago) link
Right, that is totally what you were saying, how could I not have seen that
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:42 (nine years ago) link
Maybe these arguments would go better in the future if you actually said the things you are or might be saying.
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:44 (nine years ago) link
Also if you want to talk about someone giving a pass wrt sexual violence, maybe don't do it in a thread where you responded to a gawker lol rape horny mom article with "hey man, that's just how the clickbait world works"
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 18 April 2015 03:53 (nine years ago) link
Or ur bored?
nah, drunk
but basically you are the devil's advocate for everything that sucks. i work online too, yet manage not to do the 'signs yr gf is wack' shit. your sheer relentlessness in the face of your own bullshit is impressive though. kudos
― mookieproof, Saturday, 18 April 2015 04:18 (nine years ago) link
To be fair, I had charitably gone for stupidity, but your bull headed not understanding how badly you are losing an argument theory does have some legs.
― a strawman stuffed with their collection of 12 cds (jjjusten), Saturday, 18 April 2015 04:28 (nine years ago) link
what's wrong with everyone here are you acting like you're 12 years old.
nobody has read the book yet and by the time people will have the opportunity they won't bother because apparently everyone already knows what they think it says, and this isn't about what we think about actual people and actual situations, but just what we suppose we think about some book that doesn't even matter.
one piece that might have something useful to say is one that gives adria richard's response to how she thought one excerpt of the book portrayed her situation: http://www.shakesville.com/2015/02/the-falsest-of-false-equivalencies.html
but yeah feel free to ignore that in the name of saving the planet from the scrounge of not-niceness which is clearly the plague hanging over humanity at this precise moment in the evolution of culture and society.
― creaks, whines and trife (s.clover), Saturday, 18 April 2015 05:54 (nine years ago) link
― mookieproof, Saturday, 18 April 2015 04:18 (1 hour ago) Permalink
Wtf I'm not playing devils advocate here. Your now talking about three different things and lumping them all together (one of which you have literally zero idea what you're talking about) so kudos on "clarity" clearly a highly valued quality around here
― deej loaf (D-40), Saturday, 18 April 2015 06:14 (nine years ago) link