True - but they do somehow have to get those 40 seats back
― There was Bjork from Iceland and Alanis Morissette from Canada (onimo), Saturday, 30 May 2015 09:28 (nine years ago) link
In any broadly representative democracy, as long as every citizen has the vote, there will always be demand and pressure for redistribution of wealth, because votes are distributed more evenly than wealth. The Tories have recognised this for as long as I've been alive, and with a brief period of aberration (say from about 1997-2005 or so) they've been largely adept at dealing with it.
The politics of aspiration are largely about offsetting that pressure. People with money are, by and large, going to vote one way or the other according to their levels of security, fear, intelligence and empathy, but 'aspiration' in the post-Thatcherite sense isn't really about addressing them. It's about convincing enough of the people without much money that they are more likely to be able to help themselves than any left-of-centre government is going to help them. A lot of those people will vote Tory, enough of the rest will just decide there's no point and not bother to vote at all, or take their vote to UKIP or whoever. Either way the pressure is off the Tories. It's an elephant trap that Labour have fallen into time and time again and just repeatedly honking 'aspiration!' and 'John Lewis' like a load of flapping fairground puppet heads isn't really going to address that.
It's also why I'm sceptical of people who assume that the Did Not Vote contingent is a broadly left-leaning mass that could be harnessed by a party with some actual social-democratic policies.
The thing that none of these cocks will address is that not once did Blair go into a General Election promising to cut spending, in fact it was usually the complete opposite. If they accept the myth of Labour overspending pre-2008, then that necessarily means distancing themselves from Blair, not moving closer to him. Blair himself appears to have nothing to say on the issue of austerity as far as I can tell.
'Aspiration' is particularly meaningless in this context because there's ample evidence that enough voters don't trust Labour to run any kind of economy, aspirational or otherwise.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 30 May 2015 09:32 (nine years ago) link
Right, that's Liz Kendall off the list: Don't need another leader with foot in gob syndrome.
(the other being Cameron, btw)
― Mark G, Saturday, 30 May 2015 10:01 (nine years ago) link
Also the logical endpoint of the politics of aspiration is the sort of the enormous credit bubble that helped break the UK economy in 2007-08, since the main driver of achieving material aspiration is borrowing today against tomorrow's imagined income, and credit booms are generally a symptom of inequality. If you really want to address Labour economic mismanagement, you need to start with aspiration. Suspect most of them are too stupid to realise this.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 30 May 2015 10:08 (nine years ago) link
xxxp will likely be a lot less than 40 seats by 2020 tbf
― 'come around to your house and fuck your ho' (paraphrase) (Bananaman Begins), Saturday, 30 May 2015 10:16 (nine years ago) link
Mark are you a paid-up member of the Labour Party? If so, what are the factors that will actually influence your vote?
― Matt DC, Saturday, 30 May 2015 10:24 (nine years ago) link
I follow some Andy4Leader type ppl on twitter and am now getting this stuff retweeted into my feed around 700 times a day
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGK3_2LW0AArIiS.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGLABRqWUAArTfI.jpg
― soref, Saturday, 30 May 2015 10:30 (nine years ago) link
mature political discourse is the best thing about living in a democracy
― probs with the skag (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 30 May 2015 12:02 (nine years ago) link
'every person, every family, every business – whoever they are, wherever they come from, my Labour Party will exist to help them all get off' - Andy Burnham, 29 May 2015
― soref, Saturday, 30 May 2015 12:58 (nine years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHGyokI6fMU
― soref, Saturday, 30 May 2015 12:59 (nine years ago) link
twenty twee positions on which one might stand
― thoughts you made second posts about (darraghmac), Saturday, 30 May 2015 17:52 (nine years ago) link
full marks obv
― probs with the skag (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 30 May 2015 20:30 (nine years ago) link
Hello, person who asked me a question upthread, answer to q1 is no.
― Mark G, Saturday, 30 May 2015 21:44 (nine years ago) link
Blimey, Jeremy Corbyn!
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 3 June 2015 19:10 (nine years ago) link
does Corbyn have any chance at all of getting on the ballot? I remember that Abbott only just managed in 2010
― big brute engines (soref), Wednesday, 3 June 2015 19:22 (nine years ago) link
didn't Ed Miliband provide her with the final nomination she required?
― big brute engines (soref), Wednesday, 3 June 2015 19:23 (nine years ago) link
David Miliband nominated her IIRC.
― Matt DC, Thursday, 4 June 2015 10:41 (nine years ago) link
Corbyn in:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/15/labour-leftwinger-jeremy-corbyn-wins-place-on-ballot-for-leadership
― Petite Lamela (ShariVari), Monday, 15 June 2015 11:52 (nine years ago) link
great, now the party can have a proper debate with the guy they patronisingly and begrudgingly had to be begged to invite in at the last second
― Twee Speech and Crepey Literalism (Noodle Vague), Monday, 15 June 2015 12:03 (nine years ago) link
wd like to remind all Luddites, Trots and ne'er-do-wells that you can become a registered supporter of the Party for 3 quid, and this gives you a vote in the leadership election
― Twee Speech and Crepey Literalism (Noodle Vague), Monday, 15 June 2015 12:10 (nine years ago) link
New list:
Andy BurnhamYvette CooperJeremy CorbynTristram HuntLiz KendallChuka Umunna
― Mark G, Monday, 15 June 2015 12:21 (nine years ago) link
https://twitter.com/JohnMannMP/status/610403164714627072
So to demonstrate our desire never to win again, Islington's Jeremy Corbyn is now a Labour leadership candidate.
― There was Bjork from Iceland and Alanis Morissette from Canada (onimo), Monday, 15 June 2015 16:46 (nine years ago) link
Mann majority - 8kCorbyn majority - 21k
― Petite Lamela (ShariVari), Monday, 15 June 2015 16:53 (nine years ago) link
ohmygod he made me post a Tweet
― Twee Speech and Crepey Literalism (Noodle Vague), Monday, 15 June 2015 17:02 (nine years ago) link
Annoying "eeeh I'm reet Northern me" blowhards like John Mann can only be a good thing, well done, Jeremy!
― The Manner of Crawly (Tom D.), Monday, 15 June 2015 17:08 (nine years ago) link
Because it's a Friday afternoon and it's sunny outside I had nothing better to do than watch the first half of the leadership "debate", which basically amounted to a string of platitudes punctuated by someone occasionally patronising Jeremy Corbyn.
Liz Kendall really is odious.
― Matt DC, Friday, 19 June 2015 13:21 (nine years ago) link
...and looks like a really gormless supply teacher.
― scientist/exotic dancer (suzy), Friday, 19 June 2015 13:32 (nine years ago) link
Poll of general public and Labour party members in Standard yesterday with both sets of responders giving Tony Blair massive lead on previous leader they want the new leader to most resemble.
Probably not a coincidence I dreamt I was graffitiing FUCKING TORY SCUM and GREEDY BASTARDS this morning, and woke up really really angry.
― Just noise and screaming and no musical value at all. (Colonel Poo), Friday, 19 June 2015 14:06 (nine years ago) link
Obi Wan Corbynhttps://mobile.twitter.com/rupephoto/status/623789573471105024
― djmartian, Sunday, 26 July 2015 12:23 (nine years ago) link
misread that url as 'rudephoto' and was kind of disappointed after clicking through
― pop addicts should "do their thing", whatever that may be (soref), Sunday, 26 July 2015 13:09 (nine years ago) link
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/im-more-convinced-ever-jeremy-corbyn-going-win
― stet, Monday, 27 July 2015 14:17 (nine years ago) link
At one contest there were just 25 ballots: nine for Jeremy Corbyn, eight for Andy Burnham, four for Yvette Cooper, and one simply reading “Fuck Kendall”.
― sorry, no results found for "Sekal Has To Die" (xelab), Monday, 27 July 2015 14:58 (nine years ago) link
On David Cameron: "The most facile, superficial prime minister there's ever been. He just shoots from the hip. He is false. He makes one-off commitments and cannot deliver."
On Boris Johnson: "His is a joke... a public school upper class twit. He plays well in London because they like a cheeky chappie. Can you present Boris Johnson in Preston, in Burnley, in Manchester? No, they just think he's an arsehole."
On why Tony Blair went into Iraq: "...because he fell in love with George Bush".
Any chance of Lord Sewel running for the Labour leadership?
― Possibly Fingers (Tom D.), Monday, 27 July 2015 16:07 (nine years ago) link
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/28/labour-candidates-attack-predictable-out-of-touch-election-campaign
A devastatingly frank attack on “Labour’s narrow, predictable and out of touch” 2015 election campaign is to be launched on Tuesday by seven of the party’s candidates who failed to win critical swing seats in England in May.In a joint open letter to the party, they say: “From thousands of doorstep conversations we all heard repeatedly our former leadership was not taken seriously while our purpose and policies failed to resonate with voters.”The campaign, the authors claim, addressed only “the needy and greedy”, leaving the rest ignored. The party had nothing to say on welfare, business creation or immigration, “sounding as if it was on the side of those that don’t work”.
In a joint open letter to the party, they say: “From thousands of doorstep conversations we all heard repeatedly our former leadership was not taken seriously while our purpose and policies failed to resonate with voters.”
The campaign, the authors claim, addressed only “the needy and greedy”, leaving the rest ignored. The party had nothing to say on welfare, business creation or immigration, “sounding as if it was on the side of those that don’t work”.
Surprised Rowenna Davis signed this.
― I wear my Redditor loathing with pride (ShariVari), Tuesday, 28 July 2015 05:15 (nine years ago) link
It turns out she is one of the coordinators behind the Blue Labour movement so not a surprise after all.
― I wear my Redditor loathing with pride (ShariVari), Tuesday, 28 July 2015 07:04 (nine years ago) link
Ha ha, you all lost, now piss off out of the Labour Party.
― Possibly Fingers (Tom D.), Tuesday, 28 July 2015 09:08 (nine years ago) link
at least they have values! horrible, horrible values.
― regret it? nope. reddit? yep. (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 July 2015 09:10 (nine years ago) link
I wonder whether people will still be saying that on the doorstep in five years' time when in-work benefits have been obliterated? I wouldn't be remotely surprised if Labour try to fight 2015's election over again in 2020, but it's probably not that sensible given that these are the exact voters the Tories are targeting.
― Matt DC, Tuesday, 28 July 2015 09:31 (nine years ago) link
http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-lewis/2015/07/echo-chamber-social-media-luring-left-cosy-delusion-and-dangerous-insularity
Haven't heard the term "virtue-signalling" before, and I'm sad I have now come across it.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 28 July 2015 13:56 (nine years ago) link
Didn't get past the first paragraph tbh.
― Possibly Fingers (Tom D.), Tuesday, 28 July 2015 14:07 (nine years ago) link
She is being melodramatic but ok ;-)
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 28 July 2015 14:08 (nine years ago) link
lots of theorising about the practice of voting for who you most agree with
― ogmor, Tuesday, 28 July 2015 14:25 (nine years ago) link
https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/209
This is good, until the last couple of paragraphs at least.
It takes epic levels of stupidity to turn 150,000 new activists, paying money to join your party inspired by one of the leadership candidates, into some sort of crisis because they're the wrong sort of leftie. There is not a party in the world that wouldn't be cheering. It also takes an astounding lack of political antennae to be blind to the fact that, by acting with such naked hostility towards them, you precipitate a split whatever the result.
All this shows a profound lack of understanding about how the political landscape is shaped by all parties, not just the one governing. See how UKIP have defined the European debate. Observe how a young SNP MPs speech can go viral. A vigorous opposition that articulates a clear alternative, can be infinitely more useful that an "electable" one that rolls over on every issue. An effective opposition is an integral part of our democracy and has been sadly absent. We need someone to drag the landscape to the left or, at least, halt its inexorable Thatcherite slide to the right.
To not understand that, is to give free rein to Tories to shape the narrative of the next five years, then win anyway. Just like they did last time, by seeding the idea that a global financial crisis was down to Labour's spending. Not speaking out against that, or not doing it soon enough and vocally enough, is how you end up carving bullshit into headstones a month before the election. If you lack substance, you are de facto reduced to gimmicks.
All this is not to say that I don't think Corbyn is electable. There is a deliberate conflation of "electability" not being someone's primary or striking quality, with them being unelectable. The real question is, I think, why would anyone vote for someone whose only purported virtue is "electability" when they explicitly state they will follow the same destructive, divisive, degrading economic policies?
― Matt DC, Tuesday, 28 July 2015 15:07 (nine years ago) link
that last paragraph is hard to parse but on the whole OTM.
― (no offence to people) (dog latin), Tuesday, 28 July 2015 15:12 (nine years ago) link
What's also gestured at but not explicitly stated there is - if Burnham/Cooper/Kendall are so attractive to the electorate, then why aren't thousands of people paying their £3.88 and signing up to vote for them?
― Matt DC, Tuesday, 28 July 2015 19:45 (nine years ago) link
wish i could put into words my feelings re this chaos in the same manner as matt dc did in his post cos that totally hits my groove.
thank you MDC.
and yeah, this whole thing re "people signing up to vote for the left = bunch of nutters" is just seriously messed up, and rather depressing.
― mark e, Tuesday, 28 July 2015 21:30 (nine years ago) link
Matt's posts on here have been consistently good and he doesn't round down like everyone else. But tbh some of his posts are making me want to actually pay the £3.88.
― sorry, no results found for "Sekal Has To Die" (xelab), Tuesday, 28 July 2015 21:50 (nine years ago) link
This is an excellent and pragmatic take on the whole thing https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/jeremy-gilbert/what-hope-for-labour-and-left-election-80s-and-‘aspiration’
― (no offence to people) (dog latin), Tuesday, 28 July 2015 21:52 (nine years ago) link
Hmm you may have to copy and paste the link
That's really fucking good.
― Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 28 July 2015 23:03 (nine years ago) link