Lol doesn't like a quarter of their arms spending go straight to Germany?
― Matt DC, Monday, 6 July 2015 09:41 (eight years ago) link
I don't know how much they can practically do. Tonnage tax is one thing that could be addressed but the internationalisation of both shipping and Greek money more generally makes going after people with a wealth tax hard. Most extreme wealth, as far as i can tell, isn't tied to land value - which can be taxed fairly easily, it's complex assets that can be moved off to Cyprus, Malta, etc. Most "Greek" shipping companies aren't registered in Greece - the fleets are tied to a P.O box in Liberia, etc.
The wealth tax that was introduced, Enfia, disproportionately hit low and middle-income families who had a bit of farming land left to them, and so on.
Aside from the practical elements, there's an underlying danger that efforts to really crack down on the relatively wealthy could have unintended political consequences. The far-right isn't getting its money from thin air and "fighting a war on two fronts" might not be far from the truth.
― I wear my Redditor loathing with pride (ShariVari), Monday, 6 July 2015 09:43 (eight years ago) link
yeah, telling SYRIZA they should be taxing shipping magnates more is a bit 'don't piss on me and tell me it's raining'. Like as if the EU and all other institutions of global economic governance weren't ferociously committed to making transnational capital flows as smooth and easy as possible.
― 2011’s flagrantly ceremonious rock-opera (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 6 July 2015 10:21 (eight years ago) link
anyway, stoked 4 the thinkpieces
― 2011’s flagrantly ceremonious rock-opera (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 6 July 2015 10:23 (eight years ago) link
Didn't the counter-offer from Syriza involve more taxes on the rich to offset austerity a bit, and wasn't that shot down by the trojka?
― Frederik B, Monday, 6 July 2015 10:46 (eight years ago) link
Yes, there was an understanding that taxes would be raised to some extent and, probably more crucially, enforcement would be better.
I'm not sure if the Troika gave a breakdown of why it was rejected but most of the commentary has been that enforcing higher taxes would lead to more capital flight and revenue targets via taxation were too ambitious to be realistic, so the only reliable way to pay the interest would be through a raid on pensions and vasts amounts of privatisation (selling Pireaus, etc). I've seen quite a few pieces that have argued taxes should be lowered to encourage more people to pay them, which is optimistic.
― I wear my Redditor loathing with pride (ShariVari), Monday, 6 July 2015 10:54 (eight years ago) link
I had nice Greek food for lunch in Berlin today fwiw
― droit au butt (Euler), Monday, 6 July 2015 13:00 (eight years ago) link
enjoy it while you still can!
― ogmor, Monday, 6 July 2015 13:01 (eight years ago) link
RIP
there'll still be Bulgarian feta
― droit au butt (Euler), Monday, 6 July 2015 13:03 (eight years ago) link
translated interview w/ piketty:https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff
― Mordy, Monday, 6 July 2015 16:04 (eight years ago) link
oh shit i just noticed he took down the translation. bummer - original here:http://www.zeit.de/2015/26/thomas-piketty-schulden-griechenland/komplettansicht
Piketty: When I hear the Germans now say that they maintain a very moral dealing with debt and firmly believe that debts must be repaid, then I think: That's a big joke! Germany is the country that has never paid its debts.
They won't like that... from a Frenchman.
― holger sharkey (Tom D.), Monday, 6 July 2015 16:09 (eight years ago) link
yeah was gonna post that but then the translation disappeared
― Οὖτις, Monday, 6 July 2015 16:10 (eight years ago) link
It seems laughable that European countries coudl ever work together on anything other than techno music
― Brian Eno's Mother (Latham Green), Monday, 6 July 2015 16:24 (eight years ago) link
So basically we need a techno "We Are the World."
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 6 July 2015 16:27 (eight years ago) link
But not in German.
― holger sharkey (Tom D.), Monday, 6 July 2015 16:29 (eight years ago) link
https://web.archive.org/web/20150706021012/https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff
― Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Monday, 6 July 2015 16:37 (eight years ago) link
a bunch of zingers in there:
ZEIT: Many Germans believe that the Greeks still have not recognized their mistakes and want to continue their free-spending ways.
Piketty: If we had told you Germans in the 1950s that you have not properly recognized your failures, you would still be repaying your debts. Luckily, we were more intelligent than that.
― Οὖτις, Monday, 6 July 2015 16:48 (eight years ago) link
Damn! That Piketty interview is hard hitting stuff. Not only is Piketty right, but he is so obviously right it made me wince. Thanks.
― Aimless, Monday, 6 July 2015 16:49 (eight years ago) link
Wow, there are a lot of techno versions of Ode To Joy... http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=techno+ode+to+joy
― Rouge Trooper (dowd), Monday, 6 July 2015 18:31 (eight years ago) link
varoufakis was hot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyNMZxyVVpA
― flopson, Monday, 6 July 2015 20:05 (eight years ago) link
he still is!
― Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Monday, 6 July 2015 22:13 (eight years ago) link
"In his home country, a new word was coined - "Varoufitses" - to describe women who idolise Mr Varoufakis."
― holger sharkey (Tom D.), Monday, 6 July 2015 22:17 (eight years ago) link
he looks a bit like Paulo Di Canio
― xelab, Monday, 6 July 2015 23:41 (eight years ago) link
he is a horrible writer
― bureau belfast model (LocalGarda), Monday, 6 July 2015 23:42 (eight years ago) link
Paoulo?
― Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Monday, 6 July 2015 23:43 (eight years ago) link
yeah that fucker as well, but you have also spelt it wrong!
― xelab, Monday, 6 July 2015 23:46 (eight years ago) link
FU
― Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Monday, 6 July 2015 23:54 (eight years ago) link
picketty is right. fuck germany
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 7 July 2015 11:59 (eight years ago) link
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/Slavoj-Zizek-greece-chance-europe-awaken
― max, Tuesday, 7 July 2015 12:01 (eight years ago) link
Yeah Piketty made my change my stance on this - basically arguing people to see the big picture here. It'll take a hell of a politician to take the high road on this (cf. his quote on Kohl) and I'm not sure we've got one of those in the current crop.
― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Tuesday, 7 July 2015 12:05 (eight years ago) link
i mean greece has been acting stupid for years, don't get me wrong. and the eurozone should probably tighten their commitment to unification and have an inter-nation tax collection agency so crazy greeks pay their taxes. but seriously germany, suck it up
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 7 July 2015 12:15 (eight years ago) link
I think there's a good chapter on debt history in Pikkety's book. Read it recently, but this goes to show how thorough. It's a very good book, though.
― Frederik B, Tuesday, 7 July 2015 12:21 (eight years ago) link
euclid tsakalatos = best name ever
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/07/greece-comes-to-emergency-summit-empty-handed.html
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 7 July 2015 18:59 (eight years ago) link
boom tsakalatos
― StanM, Tuesday, 7 July 2015 19:01 (eight years ago) link
eurozone just dropped the hammer
― hot doug stamper (||||||||), Tuesday, 7 July 2015 21:42 (eight years ago) link
I did a higher level course in economics but I have to admit that ultimately I do not have a clue what's going on. Even to the point that I'm like "what is this debt?" Or even "what is money any more?" I mean I love that Picketty interview because it's fearless, I want to believe. But wtf is going on? I feel so stupid when I read about it.
― Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Wednesday, 8 July 2015 02:38 (eight years ago) link
good op-ed from a Greek friend of mine:
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/eu-priorities-2020/search-vision-europe-316063
― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Wednesday, 8 July 2015 09:34 (eight years ago) link
so the chinese stock market crashed today. i'm sure these are isolated incidents
― reggie (qualmsley), Wednesday, 8 July 2015 13:59 (eight years ago) link
Or even "what is money any more?"
srsly
― j., Wednesday, 8 July 2015 14:01 (eight years ago) link
China has its own economic issues that don't hinge on Greek debt
― Mordy, Wednesday, 8 July 2015 14:12 (eight years ago) link
re "what is money any more?" i feel like that's the least confusing bit about all of this. Greece doesn't have a sovereign currency so they can't do any of the things a country might normally do to restart their economy.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 8 July 2015 14:34 (eight years ago) link
no one said anything about hinging. but a stable european market helps not hurts the chinese market
― reggie (qualmsley), Wednesday, 8 July 2015 14:54 (eight years ago) link
from what i understand european markets have been relatively stable throughout this ordeal
― Mordy, Wednesday, 8 July 2015 14:55 (eight years ago) link
nah i think mordy's right, china just had a big bubble
― flopson, Wednesday, 8 July 2015 14:56 (eight years ago) link
not saying the bubble popped because germany might be pushing greece out of the european union. (if they do, that might be a real ordeal.) the specter of european chaos doesn't help, is what i'm saying -- which is one of the reasons europe united in the first place, if i'm remembering correctly
― reggie (qualmsley), Wednesday, 8 July 2015 15:01 (eight years ago) link
World markets were hit on Wednesday by a meltdown in Chinese markets, a slump in commodities and questions over whether Europe could save Greece.European trading got off to a steady start, even though stocks had plunged 6.75 percent in China .CSI300, where the country's regulator warned investors were being gripped by "panic sentiment".That put all of Asia into a tailspin. Hong Kong .HSI dropped 8 percent, and Japan's Nikkei .N225 and stocks in Australia .AXJO took heavy blows, leaving investors only the yen JPY= and safe-haven government bonds for refuge. The yen rose to a six-week high against the dollar.
European trading got off to a steady start, even though stocks had plunged 6.75 percent in China .CSI300, where the country's regulator warned investors were being gripped by "panic sentiment".
That put all of Asia into a tailspin. Hong Kong .HSI dropped 8 percent, and Japan's Nikkei .N225 and stocks in Australia .AXJO took heavy blows, leaving investors only the yen JPY= and safe-haven government bonds for refuge. The yen rose to a six-week high against the dollar.
i don't get that Greece is enough of a player in the world economy that it really matters - the concerns are more things like whether a Grexit will lead to a idk Spexit or Itexit or whatever, then actual ripples from Greece itself (and I wonder if a lot of that risk has already been built into the market - how much the EU will really suffer at this pt if the Grexit happens)
― Mordy, Wednesday, 8 July 2015 15:03 (eight years ago) link
Burningmoney.gif
― How Butch, I mean (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Wednesday, 8 July 2015 15:56 (eight years ago) link
from NYT:
Europe is in “limbo and despair” as it awaits the next episode in the Greek crisis, said Carsten Brzeski, an economist in Frankfurt with ING-DiBa.
“It’s like the movie ‘Groundhog Day,’ ” Mr. Brzeski said. “We wake up from yet another Eurogroup emergency meeting on Greece, and the world still looks exactly the same.”
“Our base case is still a ‘Eurofudge,’ ” Mr. Brzeski said, with a slightly better than 50 percent probability that “they’ll find some kind of a deal.”
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 July 2015 16:02 (eight years ago) link
I love how "Eurofudge" is an actual term people throw around
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 8 July 2015 16:27 (eight years ago) link