i'm like more inclined to think that elites and the public are both neurologically hardwired to think of some ppl as their landsman and others as strangers + resent the latter. obv i don't think this sentiment is in any way positive. considering that the whole euro project is predicated on this idea of europeans as having a shared identity + vision of the future this whole crisis would be a better opportunity to try and smooth those borders.
― Mordy, Saturday, 11 July 2015 23:00 (eight years ago) link
mmm, yes, I'm not keen on false-consciousness type arguments in general. I do think though that this is an issue which would never have gained popular momentum in the first place, had the whole issue been kept by the relevant governments at a dry, technocratic level: within-eurozone transfers are required between core and peripheral nations in order to secure the stability of the currency- that sort of thing. Instead, they insisted on making it about nation(s) vs nation, and rubbed the lamp of nativism / protectionism, the othering of outsiders, the closing ranks around ones landsmen, all that stuff that you're quite correct about. They had the choice, and emphatically rejected the opportunity to try and smooth the borders, to strengthen the idea of a European shared identity.
― 2011’s flagrantly ceremonious rock-opera (Bananaman Begins), Saturday, 11 July 2015 23:27 (eight years ago) link
I don't think this will deter people from electing Podemos or other parties on anti-austerity tickets such as Sinn Fein, and Syriza are still there - ultimately Tsipras is being a politician and this is still a long game.― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 11 July 2015 09:11 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
it will hurt sf imo
and rightly so. and for the better.
― irl lol (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 July 2015 01:12 (eight years ago) link
Depends on how it goes for Greece - what degrees of bad and who that is seen to be caused by.
At the mo its looking like (i) Eurozone splits mean Greece get kicked as they don't trust Syriza to implement but actually (ii) if Euro does approve bailout Syriza could fall apart within months, meaning greeks will get the centrist pap that has dominated Euro politics for most of my lifetime.
If Greece are kicked that could (i) teach Spain and France a lesson if its public go the wrong way in the polls or (ii) be the first step in finishing Europe, or large parts of the Euro project.
Like to think they'll approve but bullets in Sarajevo etc.
― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 12 July 2015 07:30 (eight years ago) link
is this a coup?
― hot doug stamper (||||||||), Sunday, 12 July 2015 22:19 (eight years ago) link
Is the Euro (as opposed to the EU itself) even worth saving at this point?
― Matt DC, Sunday, 12 July 2015 22:31 (eight years ago) link
for all of the stereotyping ("greeks are lazy / shifty / uppity" etc) passing for serious analytical discourse, there's not enough "germans are stupid" and "capitalism is bullshit"
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 13 July 2015 01:57 (eight years ago) link
It's us and them all over again, innit. They're always wrong and we're always right.
― StanM, Monday, 13 July 2015 04:00 (eight years ago) link
they're wrong insofar as "they" are banks charging interest rates too high to pay back. always
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 13 July 2015 04:06 (eight years ago) link
is this a coup?― hot doug stamper (||||||||), Sunday, 12 July 2015 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― hot doug stamper (||||||||), Sunday, 12 July 2015 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
The third one?
By trying to push out Greece the Eurozone wants to send a 'this is what happens if you even try to contemplate leaving the Euro'. Its not about whether its worth saying, the alternative is too messy to contemplate, the show must be kept on the road.
There was a temporary Grexit idea last night - that has been dropped. The 50bn sell off of assets (i.e. negotiation tactic, also called waterboardng) seems to be a 'up to' 50bn now.
This morning Eurozone wants all sorts of checks to be consistently applied as it doesn't trust Syriza. Or something.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2015 05:30 (eight years ago) link
A deal has been reached. Struggle to imagine it could include handing ports and national grid to Luxembourg to sell off to the highest bidder but we shall see.
― I wear my Redditor loathing with pride (ShariVari), Monday, 13 July 2015 06:57 (eight years ago) link
Tusk has confirmed rumours of agreement but says several national parliaments, presumably including Greece and Germany, will need to sign off.
― I wear my Redditor loathing with pride (ShariVari), Monday, 13 July 2015 07:21 (eight years ago) link
The concession Tsipras was able to win was that the independent group in charge of selling off €50bn of state assets will be located in Athens rather than Lux. Wouldn't bet on Syriza getting this through parliament without falling apart.
― I wear my Redditor loathing with pride (ShariVari), Monday, 13 July 2015 07:34 (eight years ago) link
Even the idea of selling 50bn in the first place is crazy.
None of this will gte sign off - see you this time next week.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2015 07:56 (eight years ago) link
It's not just the value - it's the nature of the assets. Strategically and psychologically, losing control of Piraeus and other key ports would be a massive blow and I can't see how Tsipras would be able to convince Independent Greeks or his own party, let alone the majority of Greeks who voted against much less extreme measures, even if he'd had some sleep last night.
― I wear my Redditor loathing with pride (ShariVari), Monday, 13 July 2015 08:02 (eight years ago) link
Agreement details here:
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/07/pdf/20150712-eurosummit-statement-greece/?utm_source=DSMS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Euro+Summit+Statement+12%2f07%2f2015&utm_term=952.16310.1082.0.16310&utm_content=all+customers
― I wear my Redditor loathing with pride (ShariVari), Monday, 13 July 2015 09:25 (eight years ago) link
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2015 13:13 (eight years ago) link
what a tool
― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Monday, 13 July 2015 13:25 (eight years ago) link
cant believe that ppl who have to make shit happen didn't welcome his awesome powers of theoretical/analytical framing
― irl lol (darraghmac), Monday, 13 July 2015 13:33 (eight years ago) link
Sounds as good an alternative to what is currently being proposed.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2015 13:58 (eight years ago) link
greece should sue the british for $50b for stealing the elgin marbles
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 13 July 2015 14:01 (eight years ago) link
ppl who have to make shit happen
serious, grown-ups, rite?
― 2011’s flagrantly ceremonious rock-opera (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 13 July 2015 14:15 (eight years ago) link
lol u a power worshipper
Obviously not democratically elected politicians. Anyway, when's the UK referendum, I've changed the position I've held all my adult life and now want out of the EU ASAP.
― holger sharkey (Tom D.), Monday, 13 July 2015 14:23 (eight years ago) link
We can't live in this Marxist utopia folks. Bills have to be paid, and in full too.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2015 14:25 (eight years ago) link
Hey if all the EU did was listen to Russell Brand twats like the IMF nothing would ever get done.
― Matt DC, Monday, 13 July 2015 14:26 (eight years ago) link
this is a textbook case of disaster capitalism, which naomi klein called a ways back
http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/resources/disaster-capitalism-in-action/tags/greece
i hope they teach this at wharton and other MBA programs! destroy and privatize!
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 13 July 2015 14:30 (eight years ago) link
lol Naomi Klein rite on!
am I doing dis rite I've tryed not to spell anyting rite!
― irl lol (darraghmac), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:10 (eight years ago) link
I think this sums it up best
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJzJhTtW8AAcnqg.png
― Keith Moom (Neil S), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:23 (eight years ago) link
not really
― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:28 (eight years ago) link
y knot
― 2011’s flagrantly ceremonious rock-opera (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:28 (eight years ago) link
ooo dem wotten germans
― irl lol (darraghmac), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:30 (eight years ago) link
lol u spelt 'rotten' rong
― 2011’s flagrantly ceremonious rock-opera (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:32 (eight years ago) link
dem wotan germans
― 2011’s flagrantly ceremonious rock-opera (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:33 (eight years ago) link
ruffly 90 purr scent of bale out munney went to banx not greeeeece
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/7/1/greek-bailout-money-went-to-banks-not-greece.html
now that's how you grow a national economy
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:35 (eight years ago) link
lol Wotan tbf
― irl lol (darraghmac), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:44 (eight years ago) link
omg to banx! I fot it went to the govt and then to ministers and then straight to the poor well the scales well and truly etc now
― irl lol (darraghmac), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:45 (eight years ago) link
financial depressions are hilarious! 25% unemployment is funny!
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/unemployment-rate
lol @ greece!
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:47 (eight years ago) link
wait
if we agree not to lol at Greece, if we were lolling at Greece, then its going to be OK for Greece?
and you say Naomi Klein told you this?
― irl lol (darraghmac), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:51 (eight years ago) link
man that's fucked up she should really be more careful about what she puts out there
everything is going to be okay for everyone forever as long as we continue privatizing profits and socializing losses
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 13 July 2015 15:59 (eight years ago) link
^ grown up serious ppl making shit happen
― 2011’s flagrantly ceremonious rock-opera (Bananaman Begins), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:02 (eight years ago) link
tch tch stop laughing at Greece
― irl lol (darraghmac), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:05 (eight years ago) link
darraghnebb
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Monday, 13 July 2015 16:06 (eight years ago) link
This is the least justified position of condescension since Raccoon Tanuki in his early 2015 prime.
― Matt DC, Monday, 13 July 2015 17:15 (eight years ago) link
lol milo
― Οὖτις, Monday, 13 July 2015 17:18 (eight years ago) link
I for one am glad that someone is finally speaking truth to power
― Keith Moom (Neil S), Monday, 13 July 2015 17:18 (eight years ago) link
I'm....not sure what valuable discussion I've been detailing here by offering dissent at what seemed a suitable level for the audience at the time. flopson and xxxyyyz haven't posted all day and all matt offers is rote meta zing based on obscure jol beef.
the rest pff
― irl lol (darraghmac), Monday, 13 July 2015 17:24 (eight years ago) link
rote meta zing based on obscure jol beef
wait I thought this was your schtick
― Οὖτις, Monday, 13 July 2015 17:32 (eight years ago) link
Hey, hold on, Jol Out has made it across the Atlantic?
― holger sharkey (Tom D.), Monday, 13 July 2015 17:33 (eight years ago) link