The Eurozone Crisis Thread

you know v well from UK politics thread that anyone can grow tired of the perpetual protestation of "if our side were in ....." and "if this enormous actual social barrier didn't exist" and "if the evil right wing majority/evil powerful right wing minority/evil right wing Germans didn't force this of do that or"

which is all well and good if the usual set didn't react with the usual frustrated vituperation upon the posited evil right wing ilxors when that latter group of imperfect souls posited their own doubts about the fantasy solutions proferred something something piketty

matts hypocrisy in accusations of flimsy bases for condescension may need underlining and yknow it may not.

I've wondered to what extent UK ilxor political Guardian internet snark is borne out of the same frustration of always seemingly being an idealistic opposition: going back as far as most of us have had a voting interest, maybe- within new labour, against new labour's actions, now with a Tory govt and maybe more comfortable in spinning strategies (well, tbf, just railing against strategies maybe) and awaiting idk

what are ye awaiting exactly? taking what shape, coming from where and led by who?

it'd be an interesting question to have answered and its admittedly as easy for me to pose as it is for any of yis to choose instead to react as if someone on yr internet comfort room intellectual forum pissed on yr political chips

ps yet again umpteenth time I vote harder left than u, don't it kill u but

xp this isnt aimed at anyone rly well maybe conrad and bananaman and matt the rest of ye are yknow grand sorry I rise ye as much as I do. not sorry enough not to do it

as an apology that may need a polish in fairness. first paragraph for nv

are you having a breakdown

xps the problem of stressing what's permissible under the rules of the existing economic setup is it looks a lot like you're cheering for it

true (not cheering btw; but not throwing molotov cocktails atm either)
this concern re what/who it might look like we're cheering can also distort/obstruct conversation/ thought

like i said, pretty ignorant in these matters & don’t know what’s possible & not possible here
true, sometimes crisis offers opportunity to affect/ alter rules of the game
just watching things play out, clueless here

xp you said it, mate. you said it.

deems :)

Deems the problem is that you think everyone here is living in a fantasy world when actually I acknowledged the problem you mentioned as recently as three days ago. You've got to allow people time for raging because really what is more pointless than going "well it's just an intractable problem, what can you do, sorry Greece!"

I reserve the right to pour scorn on anyone still using a government=household budget analogy especially given the shit we're going through over here right now.

OK I will cede the second point as an interim rapprochement

cool i broke darraghmac's brain

what are ye awaiting exactly? taking what shape, coming from where and led by who?

ppl in general not very forthcoming with this cf. desolate uk constitutional reform thread I started

xp Anyway,

the problem of stressing what's permissible under the rules of the existing economic setup is it looks a lot like you're cheering for it

this. In fairness I should probably try to get less irritated by this and stop imagining the ppl stressing the limits of the possible doing so with big grin on their faces burning 50 euro notes while skypeing unemployed Greeks.

You've got to allow people time for raging because really what is more pointless than going "well it's just an intractable problem, what can you do, sorry Greece!"

Could do without the subtle hints of gloating too tbh. LOL @ 'UK ILXOR Guardian reading contingent' generalizations.

xp

but maybe there should also be a moratorium on describing the few politicians trying to push back somewhat against aggressive neoliberalism and unfettered rule by the rich as childish, or unserious, or sixth form or what have you.

^ realise that's a loaded description, so substitute your own if applicable i guess

multiple economists admittedly less knowledgeable than the guy responsible for 'Keep the Meme Alive: Pippa's Arse',

This was a zing and a half from Matt DC.

xp fair enough bb

I'll try to do better but tbh I will have to talk to my ppl before retracting the guardian one tho tom

maybe I'm overstressing it itt or maybe not enough, but again to contextualise it, the chastening of syriza has an element of serious local benefit over here wrt the decreasingly credible spectre of sinn féin. if that has over-coloured my POV on the impact of a strictly-applied set of reforms on greece to anyone's distress then I apologise.

that said, I do find the level of doom prophesying regarding the package curious- I partook in this and then some in the Irish politics thread of 2008 but pushing out repayments while opening lines of credit does seem to have worked reasonably well here (notwithstanding underlying differences in national asset/income infrastructures obv).

discussions of haircuts vs austerity seems to me to be a much smaller debate in this context than the type of systemic change being pushed almost everywhere, is there not a large case here for an element of politically-motivated reporting brinkmanship that maybe exacerbates everything (down to and including humble message board debate)

imho greece should have to pay their debt but at the same time the european union should acknowledge not only that AUSTERITY HASN'T WORKED but they should justify what else is to be gained by persisting with a scheme that HASN'T WORKED and MADE THINGS WORSE beyond 'punishing greece' / 'showing italy / portugal / spain that they won't get better debt relief conditions, so don't even think about'. if the EU can't do that then fuck them; this condition that greece hold a firesale of national assets to raise $50b seems like blatant disaster capitalism, and that is asking for trouble big time

Irish debt is supposed to be repaid via growth, greek via asset-stripping

to contextualise it, the chastening of syriza has an element of serious local benefit over here wrt the decreasingly credible spectre of sinn féin.

realpolitik talk

you said it mate

is arguing against prevailing concepts instead of simply capitulating brinkmanship or is arguing for simple capitulation to prevailing concepts brinkmanship or is it the combination that makes for brinkmanship?

i said it mate

a possible solution is moving toward a union more federal like the US has, with national taxes becoming something like state taxes, and 'continental taxes' something a strong IRS type central institution (the ERS?) can collect and redistribute where needed, a la how rich american states like New York and California prop up poorer greece-like states like Alabama and Tennessee. i'm not sure if that's something europeans want or could even effect if so, given the thousands of years of history of each member state (and all the acrimony and bad blood over the millennia)

it's a good question xp. I suppose if you allow for degrees of constructiveness in arguing against and degrees of negotiation in capitulation to it might be a better question or might address the brinkmanship aspect.

wrt to "national assets" are we talking about the Port of Piraeus? which is owned by a corporation?

Maersk Looks to Buy Greek Ports of Piraeus and Thessaloniki. The other one is the energy grid.
.

yeah I see. I'm reading about the Piraeus Port Authority, a publicly-traded corporation that owns the port, but for whom at present the Greek government owns ~74% of the shares. the agreement calls for the government to sell a big part of its shares. The IPO was in 2003, with Bank of America as advisors.

there's a lot of rhetoric going on about this sale, I'm trying to follow the money better.

Greece is not Ireland etc etc.

totally accepted, my "nevertheless" above is a clumsy elision, but I'm interested in the extent to which the sides could meet (could have met, by now) were syriza not so diametrically opposed to working with Germany his troika etc

am i just sheltered or has literally no public figure outside the euro elite written approvingly of the new deal?

but I'm interested in the extent to which the sides could meet (could have met, by now) were syriza not so diametrically opposed to working with Germany his troika etc

That's all history now.

although it was patently counterproductive for greece to oppose troika I'm interested in what would have happened if they hadn't

?

totally accepted, my "nevertheless" above is a clumsy elision, but I'm interested in the extent to which the sides could meet (could have met, by now) were syriza not so diametrically opposed to working with Germany his troika etc

Takes two to tango and the Troika were delighted to have Syriza as their partners, eh? By the way, I'm no great fan of Syriza and Tsipras, even less of Varoufakis, but I then don't think any of the Guardian Reading Disappointed Lefty ILXors have actually said they were.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl9N9GdraQ

you know v well from UK politics thread that anyone can grow tired of the perpetual protestation of "if our side were in ....." and "if this enormous actual social barrier didn't exist" and "if the evil right wing majority/evil powerful right wing minority/evil right wing Germans didn't force this of do that or"

broadly yeah i agree of course, i just think the opposite of this is maybe uglier sometimes

what are ye awaiting exactly? taking what shape, coming from where and led by who?

the short answer is "i think we're all very fucked", the longer answer needs its own thread

on one level it's disingenuous of me to critique the specific rules of a game i think is hopelessly crooked. mea culpa. on the other hand i feel like realism, Panglossian or not, rarely seeks to justify itself or offer any vision beyond apathy; and sometimes it disguises a blanket contempt for other people as a scientific identification of the Facts of Life

and well, one worldview's as good as another i guess but i don't think inner conviction and honesty about means and ends is much the preserve of the anti-utopians any more than the utopians. for a conversation to serve much purpose we could all do one another the courtesy of accepting that this shit matters...if only to our own psyches

http://www.salon.com/2015/07/14/the_rise_and_fall_of_the_german_empire_what_greeces_crippling_bailout_deal_reveals_about_the_future_of_europe/

i don't think inner conviction and honesty about means and ends is much the preserve of the anti-utopians any more than the utopians. for a conversation to serve much purpose we could all do one another the courtesy of accepting that this shit matters...if only to our own psyches

this is v true. hope i didn’t seem to suggest otherwise, that was not my intention
‘anti-utopianism’ for me not a settled position but one among several conflicting bents/bends of thought, it’s fraught & i do call it into question; it needs to be continually called into question
you’re right that, uninterrogated, it can sometimes disguise bad stuff; uninterrogated utopianism, likewise

I don't know what he was like in negotiations or how to judge his domestic efforts but I broadly agree with Varoufakis re: Europe, I think that's where the most fundamental problems lie & that they have not been addressed thusfar. If the EU really is less ambitious about its future then I want out

love how krugman is calling this "the sack of athens"

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/faithocrats/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs®ion=Body

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/the-pause-of-2014/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs®ion=Body

preach it professor!

drash no i didn't think you were being cynical nor was i singling you out, i was really trying to get at an honest answer for deems' questions

appreciated obv

IMF attacks EU over bailout

marxist fucks

The ILXor Monetary Fund

noted commie fuck dave cameron calling for debt relief, I see

https://youtu.be/P84tN0z4jqM

“You’re using the system!”

Verhofstadt stands to gain personally from greek water privatisation
http://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=62406

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

http://i.imgur.com/O04OvVy.png

Deal passed by Greeks but the exit feels merely delayed.