a possible solution is moving toward a union more federal like the US has, with national taxes becoming something like state taxes, and 'continental taxes' something a strong IRS type central institution (the ERS?) can collect and redistribute where needed, a la how rich american states like New York and California prop up poorer greece-like states like Alabama and Tennessee. i'm not sure if that's something europeans want or could even effect if so, given the thousands of years of history of each member state (and all the acrimony and bad blood over the millennia)
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 12:03 (eight years ago) link
it's a good question xp. I suppose if you allow for degrees of constructiveness in arguing against and degrees of negotiation in capitulation to it might be a better question or might address the brinkmanship aspect.
― irl lol (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 12:07 (eight years ago) link
wrt to "national assets" are we talking about the Port of Piraeus? which is owned by a corporation?
― droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 12:10 (eight years ago) link
Maersk Looks to Buy Greek Ports of Piraeus and Thessaloniki. The other one is the energy grid..
― Vasco da Gama, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 12:25 (eight years ago) link
yeah I see. I'm reading about the Piraeus Port Authority, a publicly-traded corporation that owns the port, but for whom at present the Greek government owns ~74% of the shares. the agreement calls for the government to sell a big part of its shares. The IPO was in 2003, with Bank of America as advisors.
there's a lot of rhetoric going on about this sale, I'm trying to follow the money better.
― droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 12:43 (eight years ago) link
Greece is not Ireland etc etc.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 12:46 (eight years ago) link
totally accepted, my "nevertheless" above is a clumsy elision, but I'm interested in the extent to which the sides could meet (could have met, by now) were syriza not so diametrically opposed to working with Germany his troika etc
― irl lol (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 12:49 (eight years ago) link
am i just sheltered or has literally no public figure outside the euro elite written approvingly of the new deal?
― transparent play for gifs (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 12:56 (eight years ago) link
but I'm interested in the extent to which the sides could meet (could have met, by now) were syriza not so diametrically opposed to working with Germany his troika etc
That's all history now.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 12:58 (eight years ago) link
although it was patently counterproductive for greece to oppose troika I'm interested in what would have happened if they hadn't
?
― conrad, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 13:17 (eight years ago) link
Takes two to tango and the Troika were delighted to have Syriza as their partners, eh? By the way, I'm no great fan of Syriza and Tsipras, even less of Varoufakis, but I then don't think any of the Guardian Reading Disappointed Lefty ILXors have actually said they were.
― holger sharkey (Tom D.), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 14:13 (eight years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl9N9GdraQ
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 14:18 (eight years ago) link
you know v well from UK politics thread that anyone can grow tired of the perpetual protestation of "if our side were in ....." and "if this enormous actual social barrier didn't exist" and "if the evil right wing majority/evil powerful right wing minority/evil right wing Germans didn't force this of do that or"
broadly yeah i agree of course, i just think the opposite of this is maybe uglier sometimes
what are ye awaiting exactly? taking what shape, coming from where and led by who?
the short answer is "i think we're all very fucked", the longer answer needs its own thread
on one level it's disingenuous of me to critique the specific rules of a game i think is hopelessly crooked. mea culpa. on the other hand i feel like realism, Panglossian or not, rarely seeks to justify itself or offer any vision beyond apathy; and sometimes it disguises a blanket contempt for other people as a scientific identification of the Facts of Life
and well, one worldview's as good as another i guess but i don't think inner conviction and honesty about means and ends is much the preserve of the anti-utopians any more than the utopians. for a conversation to serve much purpose we could all do one another the courtesy of accepting that this shit matters...if only to our own psyches
― This is for my new ringpiece, so please only serious answers (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 16:19 (eight years ago) link
http://www.salon.com/2015/07/14/the_rise_and_fall_of_the_german_empire_what_greeces_crippling_bailout_deal_reveals_about_the_future_of_europe/
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 17:32 (eight years ago) link
i don't think inner conviction and honesty about means and ends is much the preserve of the anti-utopians any more than the utopians. for a conversation to serve much purpose we could all do one another the courtesy of accepting that this shit matters...if only to our own psyches
this is v true. hope i didn’t seem to suggest otherwise, that was not my intention‘anti-utopianism’ for me not a settled position but one among several conflicting bents/bends of thought, it’s fraught & i do call it into question; it needs to be continually called into questionyou’re right that, uninterrogated, it can sometimes disguise bad stuff; uninterrogated utopianism, likewise
― drash, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 18:46 (eight years ago) link
I don't know what he was like in negotiations or how to judge his domestic efforts but I broadly agree with Varoufakis re: Europe, I think that's where the most fundamental problems lie & that they have not been addressed thusfar. If the EU really is less ambitious about its future then I want out
― ogmor, Tuesday, 14 July 2015 18:55 (eight years ago) link
love how krugman is calling this "the sack of athens"
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/faithocrats/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs®ion=Body
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/the-pause-of-2014/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs®ion=Body
preach it professor!
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 20:31 (eight years ago) link
drash no i didn't think you were being cynical nor was i singling you out, i was really trying to get at an honest answer for deems' questions
― This is for my new ringpiece, so please only serious answers (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 21:12 (eight years ago) link
appreciated obv
― irl lol (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 July 2015 21:29 (eight years ago) link
IMF attacks EU over bailout
― holger sharkey (Tom D.), Wednesday, 15 July 2015 05:56 (eight years ago) link
marxist fucks
― hot doug stamper (||||||||), Wednesday, 15 July 2015 06:20 (eight years ago) link
The ILXor Monetary Fund
― holger sharkey (Tom D.), Wednesday, 15 July 2015 06:22 (eight years ago) link
noted commie fuck dave cameron calling for debt relief, I see
― hot doug stamper (||||||||), Wednesday, 15 July 2015 11:44 (eight years ago) link
https://youtu.be/P84tN0z4jqM
― conrad, Wednesday, 15 July 2015 18:41 (eight years ago) link
“You’re using the system!”
Verhofstadt stands to gain personally from greek water privatisationhttp://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=62406
― Vasco da Gama, Wednesday, 15 July 2015 20:19 (eight years ago) link
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
http://i.imgur.com/O04OvVy.png
― flopson, Wednesday, 15 July 2015 21:23 (eight years ago) link
Deal passed by Greeks but the exit feels merely delayed.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 16 July 2015 08:17 (eight years ago) link
unless the central government takes the opportunity of this crisis to evolve into a transfer union, i think they should get the hell out (same with spain, italy, and portugal) and take the name "europe" with them. the germans can call their new empire their new land Rope
― reggie (qualmsley), Thursday, 16 July 2015 12:23 (eight years ago) link
money for old rope
― irl lol (darraghmac), Thursday, 16 July 2015 12:26 (eight years ago) link
lol flopson
― Nhex, Thursday, 16 July 2015 14:19 (eight years ago) link
i think they should get the hell out (same with spain, italy, and portugal)
... UK.
― This Year's Model Victim (Tom D.), Thursday, 16 July 2015 14:21 (eight years ago) link
not in situ
― irl lol (darraghmac), Thursday, 16 July 2015 14:38 (eight years ago) link
WaPo subheader makes me go uhhhh
For both Germany and its chancellor, Angela Merkel, the pound of flesh extracted this week to open fresh rescue talks with Athens appears to have struck a global nerve.
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 16 July 2015 17:27 (eight years ago) link
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/16/merkel-gambling-away-germanys-reputation-over-greece-says-habermas
they've lost habermas
― j., Thursday, 16 July 2015 17:29 (eight years ago) link
in order to allow Greece to get back on its feet, the debts which the IMF has deemed “highly unsustainable” need to be restructured
the outcome does not make sense in economic terms because of the toxic mixture of necessary structural reforms of state and economy with further neoliberal impositions that will completely discourage an exhausted Greek population and kill any impetus to growth
the outcome means that a helpless European Council is effectively declaring itself politically bankrupt: the de facto relegation of a member state to the status of a protectorate openly contradicts the democratic principles of the European Union. Finally, the outcome is disgraceful because forcing the Greek government to agree to an economically questionable, predominantly symbolic privatisation fund cannot be understood as anything other than an act of punishment against a left-wing government
It’s hard to see how more damage could be done.
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 20 July 2015 19:00 (eight years ago) link
The Bank of Piraeus lost the maximum 30% shares are allowed to fall in a single day when trading resumed yesterday.
They reopened again today and promptly fell another 30% before being suspended. All five of the key Greek banks have fallen by 25% or more for two days in a row. National Bank of Greece is recovering a bit.
― I wear my Redditor loathing with pride (ShariVari), Tuesday, 4 August 2015 10:06 (eight years ago) link
Tsipras has resigned and called a snap election to outmanoeuvre the Syriza rebels who have left the government even more reliant on the backing of right-wing parties to get anything done.
Germany has highlighted the refugee crisis as more of a threat to the current working of the EU than Greece, though. They claim to expect 800k asylum applications this year and say that unless something is done to ensure that all member states are willing to accept refugees, Schengen has no future.
― I wear my Redditor loathing with pride (ShariVari), Friday, 21 August 2015 07:23 (eight years ago) link
who would want to be in a political union with germany
― ogmor, Friday, 21 August 2015 17:28 (eight years ago) link
Syriza's left-wing rebels have formally split and now form the third largest party in the Greek parliament, behind Syriza, and the main right-wing opposition, but ahead of Golden Dawn.
― you too could be called a 'Star' by the Compliance Unit (jim in glasgow), Friday, 21 August 2015 19:01 (eight years ago) link
id like to see the left-syriza win the election and then refuse to pay the debt and leave the eu. just to see what sort of shit-storm would ensue. although perhaps I shouldn't be so keen to think of the fate of millions of people (in Greece, in the Eurozone, worldwide due to the economic shockwaves) in terms of how entertaining it might be for me.
― you too could be called a 'Star' by the Compliance Unit (jim in glasgow), Friday, 21 August 2015 19:05 (eight years ago) link
i don't see any non-horrible way out of neolib economics and neolib economics are killing us so chocks away
― bombsover# (Noodle Vague), Friday, 21 August 2015 19:22 (eight years ago) link
planned grexit is least worst shitstorm imo, but euro elites just can't let the dream die
― transparent play for gifs (Tracer Hand), Friday, 21 August 2015 21:30 (eight years ago) link
heard Tsipras this morning saying he wanted to stay in and change EU policy from within, which is...ballsy if nothing else
― bombsover# (Noodle Vague), Friday, 21 August 2015 21:32 (eight years ago) link
i think he's also confident that the Greek electorate are in no rush to go back to oligarchy
― bombsover# (Noodle Vague), Friday, 21 August 2015 21:33 (eight years ago) link
I still think reform of the EU is the best option but it wld have to be of the variety which I imagine wld be anathema to the current crop of EU elites
― ogmor, Friday, 21 August 2015 22:33 (eight years ago) link
read some article (in spanish, on some blog, on my phone) that apparently tsipras is pretty popular with the greek people according to latest polling and that there's a good chance he will be forming government, sans the left-wing splitters, but with a larger number of seats.
― you too could be called a 'Star' by the Compliance Unit (jim in glasgow), Friday, 21 August 2015 22:36 (eight years ago) link
He is the new David Cameron in other words.
― Stupidityness (Tom D.), Friday, 21 August 2015 23:34 (eight years ago) link
read some article (in spanish, on some blog, on my phone) that apparently tsipras is pretty popular with the greek people according to latest polling and that there's a good chance he will be forming government, sans the left-wing splitters, but with a larger number of seats.― you too could be called a 'Star' by the Compliance Unit (jim in glasgow), Friday, August 21, 2015 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― you too could be called a 'Star' by the Compliance Unit (jim in glasgow), Friday, August 21, 2015 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
The Greeks like centre parties, and most of them want to stay in the EU. What Tsipras is offering is a 'lets tackle oligarchs' program.
Elections in Spain are next -- all of this is chipping away at the EU and the Euro. Don't see a good end to this.
― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 23 August 2015 07:21 (eight years ago) link
it's a bizarre situation though, he's done a complete u-turn on the bailout, literally no different from pasok in that respect now.
elections in spain will be interesting, podemos likely to be one of the main parties, if not forming government, in coalition or otherwise.
then the catalan election comes soon as well, it's being contested as a plebiscite on independence.
― you too could be called a 'Star' by the Compliance Unit (jim in glasgow), Sunday, 23 August 2015 07:41 (eight years ago) link
I think he had literally no option. It was either chaotic kicking out or compliance.
― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 23 August 2015 07:43 (eight years ago) link