defend the indefensible: utilitarianism

they don't deserve it and we do

interesting.... so if an unequal distribution were deserved (hypothetical), no problem? even if you could make poors better off by taking away just desserts from rich?

why would the poors want to take away desserts that the rich ppl deserved, esp. considering they would also have whatever they deserved

right now someone is currently getting either more or less than their both desserts, yet seemingly everyone thinks they're getting less. plausible that even if everyone were getting their just desserts, they would still feel that way.

maybe in a society where everybody is dependent on many other people there's no such thing as individual dessert

is no one going to make a dessert joke here? OUTRAGEOUS

tbh i wasn't sure people already weren't

you're right in the middle of it!!!

http://img.tesco.com/Groceries/pi/586/5051399720586/IDShot_540x540.jpg

maybe in a society where everybody is dependent on many other people there's no such thing as individual dessert

― MC Whistler (Noodle Vague), Friday, August 28, 2015 10:17 AM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

j was the one who said "deserve" in the first place. i don't personally think it's a good way to think about distribution... i mean, greg mankiw thinks we shouldn't redistribute money to poors because they don't deserve it, ilx poster j thinks the opposite. if it's hard to figure out just desserts, so everyone just goes home with their priors. whereas in a utilitarian perspective, i show you a poor person suffering and a rich person spending his marginal dollars on trifles, and we're done. maybe consequences don't really exist maan *takes bong rip* or whatever but that seems like an unavoidably useful framework for anyone with strong egalitarian priors

i've said elsewhere, maybe upthread, that consequentialism might make more sense (or have more utility, lol) in the context of political action

but i'm not, instinctively, a consequentialist and i don't think political beliefs are analogous to ethical theory - i think there's a gap between programmatic or ideological types of thinking and ethics as it applies to individual action and interrelationships. if you could somehow demonstrate to me that e.g. capitalism was the form of economic organization that maximized "happiness" for the greatest number of people, i'd still believe it was a Bad Thing

sorry i shd've expanded on that first sentence - something along the lines of "the nature of managing expenditure on infrastructure for supporting large numbers of people might mean it's most effectively considered thru some kind of consequentialist lens"

flopson, I too think it is a useful framework, but what people don't like about utilitarianism is that utility is seen as more than a framework. E.G. to say "a dollar has more value to a poor person than a rich person and that argues it should be seen as a good when money flows from the rich to the poor" is a soft form of utilitarianism indeed, and not the form in which people find it indefensible.

I think a concave real-valued function is a great metaphor for this argument but that doesn't mean I think there literally IS a real-valued function lying around whose concavity is the issue. Let alone any talk about fixed point theorems.

^ my point

Just a thought, but if "the greatest good for the greatest number" is a correct formulation of the highest morality, then how would this highest morality not endorse selectively euthanizing the least healthy and most unproductive members of society, starting with the most disabled and extremely elderly, so as to redirect the resources they consume toward creating a better life for the much younger and healthier, but impoverished, members of society?

Because it's ludicrous?

I'm pretty sure there are still a few million eugenicists out there who would consider it ludicrous not to euthanize the weakest members of society and who'd justify it on purely utilitarian grounds. Is there anything inherent in utilitarianism that precludes that justification?

Anyone considering where to get resources for the poor should start with the wealthy, rather than the disabled and elderly. And throughout history, that does seem to be what people do. And even at times, violent uprisings has taken property, and at times even lifes, from the rich in order to give to the poor. The empirical evidence don't really support that this actually ends up in happiness and goodness. That's a different discussion, though.

Also, that is a prime example of dismissing consequentialism because the consequences of it are perceived to be bad ;)

You sidestepped my question very neatly, but your answer doesn't answer it. Is there anything inherent in utilitarianism that precludes its application to justify eugenics?

if you could somehow demonstrate to me that e.g. capitalism was the form of economic organization that maximized "happiness" for the greatest number of people

i think good (no doubt controversial) case can be made for this (with proviso that definitions of ‘capitalism’ & ‘happiness’ not unproblematic givens)

this is prob dumb-obv thing to say, but my problem with utilitarianism/ consequentialism is problem with any totalizing ethical system/ theory

irl (as opposed to academic philosophy), ethical considerations, criteria, calculations involve complex, heterogeneous, mixed set of language-games, engaging with abstraction/ generalization, analogies & disanalogies, yet also attuned to dense web (context) of particulars

in ‘pure’ form or as totalizing theory, consequentialism & deontology both are inhuman & absurd, alien to ways humans actually ‘reason’ morally— ways much more sophisticated than philosophy’s gedanken-parables capture or allow for (ways not easily schematized by philosophy)

imo everyone (sociopaths aside) is consequentialist and deontologist, i.e. these are primordial ethical perspectives/ arguments/ language-games, most useful & essential as correctives, checks & balances on each other

philosophers like singer seem to me like children, frustrated at illogicalities & apparent paradoxes of e.g. english language, adamantly insisting others shd adopt their own invented wd-be ‘rational’ language
i don’t begrudge anyone that choice of personal ethics (especially if it induces ethical action), but ultimately— in pure form— it’s no more ‘rational’ (its normative power no more secured by ‘logic’) than e.g. ethics based on religion
the complexity of ethical thought prob best elucidated through narrative, not abstract theory or some input-output algorithm for action

nb theories, algorithms, gedanken-experiments, schematizations of philosophy (e.g. of utilitarian philosophy) are useful— insofar as they contribute to diverse toolbox of ethical-political reasoning, argumentation, persuasion, evaluation (e.g. of policy)
but imo they don’t in themselves provide any answers

i agree it can be argued, it frequently is argued! by "demonstrate" i meant "proved to a reasonable degree of certainty".

not all consequentialism is utilitarianism, obv, but the problem they both have at the macro and micro level is fundamentally one of time - of consequences, even. an action that benefits me in the short term might do me greater harm as it's consequences unfold. a policy that benefits x number of people over a year might harm 100x people over 10.

this isn't to say consequentialism can't be a good way of taking decisions on how to behave, but it does mean that to call those decisions "moral" requires a lot of qualification of what "good", "right" and "consequence" mean

i think the language of ethics as commonly used is far closer to a deontological position. consequentialism feels closer to the language of government.

which is to say yeah i broadly agree with you drash, to insist on either position dogmatically is only sane in the realm of philosophy...the same might be true of a rigid belief in the field of ethics as a guide to how to live tho

x-post: No I can't. In the same way I can't find anything inherent in modern science to preclude it's application to proving that the world is flat. Nobody in their right mind, and in good faith, could argue that it would be utilitarian to kill a bunch of grandfathers and -mothers. But somebody might lie and manipulate to say such a thing, sure. However, the risk of something like that happening - due to utilitarianism - are so little that it simply doesn't matter, consequentialistically speaking. When speaking consequentially, what matters are not 'inherent' things, what matters is not 'being', but 'doing'.

As I said upthread, I fully accept if people think that the moral philosophy with the best consequences are anti-consequentialist. I cannot argue against lying and saying that you're not a consequentialist, even though consequentialist argumenation brought you to that conclusion. But what I would need to hear to consider deontology, for instance, would be a convincing argument based on deontological reasoning, instead of utilitarian.

Also, crash mostly otm.

Also, Noodle Vague also tom that 'the language of ethics' is closer to deontology, which is obviously why it's a worthless waste of time ;)

Also also also, late Wittgenstein rules! Language games forever.

Sorry, drash not crash. Stupid auto-correct.

children, frustrated at illogicalities & apparent paradoxes of e.g. english language, adamantly insisting others shd adopt their own invented wd-be ‘rational’ language

Have to admit that I am irrationally sympathetic with those people

xps yr points otm nv

Also also also, late Wittgenstein rules! Language games forever.

:) with you there (waving my lighter in the air)

Have to admit that I am irrationally sympathetic with those people

am sympathetic too. funny thing is, temperamentally wittgenstein was like epitome of this, keenly felt & suffered from this frustration/perplexity
that’s always one of the voices in his (dialogic) texts (a voice in himself)
all his late philosophy is like therapeutically trying to work through this, let go of that obsessiveness/ demand/ delusion, demystify ‘rule-following’

Singer distinguishes between involuntary and nonvoluntary euthanasia and argues the latter is defensible whereas the former is basically not http://utilitarianism.net/singer/by/1993----.htm

This is twenty years ago now though so maybe he's gotten weirder. Euthanasia is probably the topic of his that has sparked the most lay outrage iirc

imo everyone (sociopaths aside) is consequentialist and deontologist,

macintyre_shed_tear.gif

utilitarians of many non-horrific stripes routinely repudiate dumm consequences drawn from their main doctrine by e.g. claiming that the basic moral standards (inclusive of duties, rights, liberties, autonomy, what have you) are to be observed in some fashion or other when applying the principle of utility. mill did so. whether or not their theoretical refinements or their official stance toward existing moral practices hold up is another matter (esp. e.g. in view of their generally wide-open attitude toward the revision of any existent practice that could be improved utility-wise), but their official view excludes 'let's kill all the babies' etc.

xp aw & virtue ethicist too (i.e. everyone is)
(<3 aristotle)

(though not v aristotelian irl myself)
(think aristotle wd be first to criticize utilitarians & deontologists, strict dogmatic ones anyway, for reasons related to discussion above)

i think it's straightforward to maintain lots of inalienable human rights & other rules on utilitarian grounds esp when allowing for the lack of omniscience/consensus on individual decisions

Gawker ended up publishing the piece: http://gawker.com/heres-the-philosophy-essay-vox-found-too-upsetting-to-p-1727243459

Furthermore, it’s difficult to get a grasp of what Big Bad World would be like. But the way people live there may be similar to the way we live. There are ups and downs in our lives. Perhaps a typical human life often ends up with only a little happiness as its net sum. Perhaps many lives end up with a negative sum. But then, is the Big Bad World so bad as one may at first have thought? It’s quite possible that people in Big Bad World aren’t living in abject poverty and misery, but instead have lives similar those of many affluent people living in rich, developed countries today.

I thought an assumption of the repugnant conclusion is that the people in Big Bad World live lives barely worth living. If in imagining such a world we imagine a world in which peoples' lives are pretty good, that just means we haven't thought about a big enough world, and we can reiterate the problem with respect to an even bigger world where individual standards of living are much worse but the net happiness is greater.

I think a concave real-valued function is a great metaphor for this argument but that doesn't mean I think there literally IS a real-valued function lying around whose concavity is the issue. Let alone any talk about fixed point theorems.

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Friday, August 28, 2015 11:27 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

all language is just metaphors, none of the things literally exist (although it's possible to observe these functions under very weak assumptions, just in rather banal settings). i think this is just bias against math, people take it more literally than they do other language for some reason. i just said concave real valued function as a shorthand to what we all understand and are familiar with as a real thing

Metaphors don't suffice for what's supposed to be (and claimed as by some of its proponents) a totalizing ethical theory. If philosophers in the anglophone tradition still want to make arguments about how we ought to live (which, for some reason, some of them do) resorting to analogy, sophistry, and appeals to common sense sorta seems like admitting the project is ridiculous.

utilitarianism isn't a philosophy, it's a tactic.

i think this is just bias against math, people take it more literally than they do other language for some reason.

for some reason?!?!

I mean I'm not trying to be difficult, just saying, as someone in math I'm keenly aware of the way that mathematical language is actually much more useful to take literally than other language, as long as you make sure only to take it literally when it's meant literally.

all language is just metaphors, none of the things literally exist

flopson comin out all nietzschean

Which is why I think it's cool to say "it's good when money flows from rich to poor because IT'S KIND OF LIKE there's a concave function" is cool but "I can't tell you what utility different actions have but there must be a consistent way to assign utilities to outcomes because fixed point theorem" is not OK; it takes what was a useful metaphor and promotes it to the kind of thing to which one can apply fixed-point theorems.

i think i see what you mean

/all language is just metaphors, none of the things literally exist/

flopson comin out all nietzschean
--j.

haha i love these threads cause i'm just pulling stuff outta my ass but you guys have actually studied thought hard about and know like the history of these ideas. thank you for putting up with me each time i load the thread im like oh god what crap did i post here last night and cringe

utilitarianism isn't a philosophy, it's a tactic.

― rushomancy, 29. august 2015 20:31 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

See, but what if, from a utilitarianist standpoint, in comparing language games, tactics are more moral than philosophy?

utilitarianism isn't a philosophy, it's a tactic.

― rushomancy, Saturday, August 29, 2015 11:31 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's ludicrous. I don't think Peter Singer is arguing in bad faith, using appealing intuitions about utility to achieve ends he doesn't think he could defend arguing from the utilitarian premise. I believe he really believes that what is good is to reduce suffering in the world as much as possible. His tactics are political.

good effective altruism smackdown by felix salmon http://t.co/aqXBa8UBEA

The same argument could be deployed about anything else that makes the world a better place without being a direct donation of money or time to charity, whether it’s founding Google, writing the novels of Judy Blume, or even working for a do-gooding nonprofit, if doing so pays you anything close to a market wage. Cooney’s admiration for check-writers is mirrored by his disdain for the people cashing those checks and doing the actual work: “Most non-profit staffers are not choosing the path that leads to the greatest good,” he writes.

gets at the self-hating dimension that must drive a lot of these people who i would wager predominantly HAVE social-benefit jobs in the first place

'i am so useless as a teacher, i submit my grades and my students leave and what impact have i even had on the world!??!'

and again with the arts