i need to read that.i really enjoyed the simon callow bios ... if anything they showed off how films were just one part of his life. wonder if callow is going to keep going with them? second volume only made it through the 40s.
― tylerw, Thursday, 17 September 2015 21:02 (eight years ago) link
oh hey! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Orson-Welles-Volume-One-Man-Band/dp/0224079352
― tylerw, Thursday, 17 September 2015 21:03 (eight years ago) link
I would recommend the David Thomson biog Rosebud, too - one of his best books, I think. He is pretty tough on Welles, and apparently the book is not 100% reliable factually, but there's something about Thomson's waywardness that feels very well-suited to the subject.
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Thursday, 17 September 2015 21:09 (eight years ago) link
am I wrong in my impression that Rosenbaum hates Thomson? Particularly re: the latter's less than enthusiastic view of some of Welles' work?
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 17 September 2015 21:11 (eight years ago) link
Thomson is not loved by Welles scholar. I have affection for his book.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 September 2015 21:14 (eight years ago) link
*scholars
xpostI wouldn't be surprised - I think Thomson annoys quite a few 'serious' film scholars. Personally, I like the fact that he wasn't one of Orson's groupies back in the day.
Bogdanovich seemed fairly hostile to Rosenbaum when he was speaking about Other Side of the Wind recently
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Thursday, 17 September 2015 21:20 (eight years ago) link
i think rosenbaum is particularly irked by thomson's airy suggestions that it would be better if welles's unfinished/lost works were never seen because the "myth" of all those lost films is more entrancing than the reality could ever be. that's probably not precisely what thomson wrote but i read that book more than a decade ago, iirc it's more of a meditation on welles's life and works than it is a "biography" in the strictest sense.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 17 September 2015 21:23 (eight years ago) link
only Thomson I've read is the Big Screen (which I really enjoyed); his discussion of Citizen Kane and Magnificent Ambersons is largely ambivalent.
xxp
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 17 September 2015 21:32 (eight years ago) link
I own the book. The passages about TMA contain some of the loveliest and most trenchant criticism Welles has gotten. As a guy who gives not a damn about outtakes and most B-sides, I don't care if his unfinished movies remain unreleased tbh
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 September 2015 22:01 (eight years ago) link
i dunno if outtakes and b-sides are the best analogy, since welles seems to have made a few films that were basically done but never got the final mix or edit or whatever. or don quixote which he'd more or less finished a couple of versions of but left in pieces all over the world. it'd be like if bob dylan had made a few albums just for the hell of it and then just left the tapes in a hotel room somewhere.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 17 September 2015 22:42 (eight years ago) link
yeah a bunch of it is rights issues/legal/financial nonsense
I don't think you can even get a DVD of Chimes at Midnight in the US for ex.
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 17 September 2015 22:48 (eight years ago) link
No, it's not the right analogy. Difficult evaluating a career in which so many major works weren't what the creator envisioned. Thomson gets flak, by the way, because holds Welles and what he suggests is his indolence almost as responsible as the studios.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 September 2015 22:57 (eight years ago) link
that's a big thing Rosenbaum pushes back against - that Welles was lazy. Dude was a workaholic by his estimation, working right up until the moment he died
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 17 September 2015 23:01 (eight years ago) link
Thomson says it's closer to intellectual indolence. Welles was a workaholic who lost interest in projects past a certain point, which is borne out by what happened to The Magnificent Ambersons (he was in Brazil working on a doc and his fucking and drinking).
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 September 2015 23:03 (eight years ago) link
tbf RKO burning the extra footage in that case is a p big dick move
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 17 September 2015 23:04 (eight years ago) link
tbh i think the "lazy welles who couldn't finish anything" view is closer to the mainstream view! i dunno if it's a fair assessment re: ambersons, though: RKO could just as easily have ripped it to shreds even if he'd never gone to brazil, welles had already relinquished the "final cut" power he had when he did kane.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 17 September 2015 23:50 (eight years ago) link
Yeah -- that's precisely what Rosenbaum sought to refute.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 17 September 2015 23:56 (eight years ago) link
i don't like Thomson much. He put Johnny Carson in his biographical dictionary of FILM.
btw apparently we're never seeing Other Side of the Wind bcz of Oja Kodar, acc to Bogdanovich and others.
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Friday, 18 September 2015 03:30 (eight years ago) link
looks like you can watch them talk about it here:
http://www.wellesnet.com/the-other-side-of-the-wind-delay-raised-at-prestigious-welles-panel/
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Friday, 18 September 2015 05:27 (eight years ago) link
ha, true. the johnny carson entry is a beautiful piece of writing, though. xp
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Friday, 18 September 2015 05:30 (eight years ago) link
Went to the BFI (to see something else) and upon the ad for the (now gone) Orson Welles season -- titled "The Great Disruptor" -- the friend I went with (a former ILXor) called him "The Donald Trump of Film".
Had a good chuckle over that, really can't think of anyone who so doesn't need a season. What a waste.
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 18 September 2015 09:57 (eight years ago) link
all i can say to your nonsense is Dietrich's "People should cross themselves when they say his name."
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Friday, 18 September 2015 11:24 (eight years ago) link
Dietrich not the only one who swallowed his bullshit.
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 18 September 2015 11:35 (eight years ago) link
Do love the guy but there is one really great film, a couple of other good ones and half a dozen great performances. Its more an issue around that ridiculous BFI season.
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 18 September 2015 11:40 (eight years ago) link
Morbz otm
― Οὖτις, Friday, 18 September 2015 16:18 (eight years ago) link
apparently we're never seeing Other Side of the Wind bcz of Oja Kodar, acc to Bogdanovich and othersLAME
― tylerw, Friday, 18 September 2015 16:21 (eight years ago) link
https://media2.giphy.com/media/14cEMhV9oKjya4/200_s.gif
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 18 September 2015 16:24 (eight years ago) link
(he was in Brazil working on a doc and his fucking and drinking).
there's an interesting aside in one of the Rosenbaum essays where he cites the possibility that criticism of Welles' behavior during his Brazil trip was racially motivated:
Then came the relevatory research carried out in both Brazil and the United States by Robert Stam and others - research which is still in progress, but which has already yielded some fascinating discoveries. Drawing on an array of Hollywood and Brazilian documents, Stam persuasively argues, for instance, that most of the complaints about Welles's profligacy in Brazil can be attributed to his radical pro-black stance, including the fact that he enjoying the company and collaboration of blacks, as well as his insistence on featuring nonwhites as the central characters in both of "It's All True"'s Brazilian episodes. Based on this reading, which Stam explores in detail, one is encouraged by Stam to reread most disapproving biographical accounts of Welles's "Brazilian episode", especially those of Charles Higham and John Russell Taylor, as unconsciously but unmistakably racist.
― Οὖτις, Friday, 18 September 2015 16:28 (eight years ago) link
Do love the guy but there is one really great film
you don't rrrrrrreally love him, take your jigsaw puzzles and go.
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Friday, 18 September 2015 17:39 (eight years ago) link
Thinking about this need to bring down Papa Welles (surely in part a reaction to the romantic hyperbole of things like that Dietrich quote - or Godard's equally absurd 'All of us will always owe him everything') led me to thinking about Kael's 'Raising Kane', which led to me finding Sarris' response to Kael's piece here:
http://www.wellesnet.com/andrew-sarris-vs-pauline-kael-on-raising-kane/
At one point Sarris writes:
At the very least, we may expect a reprise of the recriminations exchanged between Peter Bogdanovich and Charles Higham on the occasion of the publication of Mr. Higham's "The Films of Orson Welles."
I don't know the Higham book, does anyone know what the fuss was about?
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Friday, 18 September 2015 18:58 (eight years ago) link
I never heard this before, but the recent Kael bio says Kael more or less stole most of her research for that article.
― Norse Jung (Eric H.), Friday, 18 September 2015 19:09 (eight years ago) link
including the falsehoods?
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Friday, 18 September 2015 19:10 (eight years ago) link
Ward:
http://www.wellesnet.com/peter-bogdanovich-replies-to-charles-higham/
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Friday, 18 September 2015 19:13 (eight years ago) link
I think the falsehoods were somewhat selective extrapolations.
― Norse Jung (Eric H.), Friday, 18 September 2015 19:16 (eight years ago) link
Thanks Morbs - not sure Bogdanovich does Welles any favours here
― sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Friday, 18 September 2015 19:48 (eight years ago) link
the Kael article I sum up: bad if not meretricious journalism, terrific as criticism. I love the "shallow masterpiece" bit.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 18 September 2015 19:58 (eight years ago) link
the "shallow masterpiece" bit is really fucking annoying. does she suggest what his deep masterpieces are? i don't recall.
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Friday, 18 September 2015 20:31 (eight years ago) link
all masterpieces should be that shallow
― Οὖτις, Friday, 18 September 2015 20:34 (eight years ago) link
It should only bug you if you're a square; I'd question someone's sanity if he walked around thinking masterpieces should be "deep." She's clear about what she means: its script is its best and worst quality. Plus, the thing is a lot of fun to watch -- pure pleasure.
Kael was a provocateur, and by 1973 or whenever she thought the film's defenders needed a kick in the shins.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 18 September 2015 20:36 (eight years ago) link
I've never actually read the article and can't find it online anywhere at the moment (and its reputation as being thoroughly discredited has apparently merited its omission from various reprintings, collections, etc.)
― Οὖτις, Friday, 18 September 2015 20:37 (eight years ago) link
It's worth a read, like Eliot's After Strange Gods.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 18 September 2015 20:40 (eight years ago) link
it's in her collected crit too.
I assume yr referring to For Keeps: 30 Years at the Movies from 1994 - it's not in her 2011 collection
― Οὖτις, Friday, 18 September 2015 20:41 (eight years ago) link
Yep.
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 18 September 2015 20:41 (eight years ago) link
I'd question someone's sanity if he walked around thinking masterpieces should be "deep."
ah popmuzik
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Friday, 18 September 2015 20:44 (eight years ago) link
hope I die before I get morbed
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 18 September 2015 20:48 (eight years ago) link
now Brian de Palma's defenders needed a kick in the shins.
― skateboards are the new combover (Dr Morbius), Friday, 18 September 2015 20:55 (eight years ago) link
now there's a man who created a coupla shallow masterpieces
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 18 September 2015 20:56 (eight years ago) link
depth is a funny thing
― Οὖτις, Friday, 18 September 2015 21:00 (eight years ago) link