Yeah. The trick/hard part of the UBI as a counter-hegemonic political goal is to not sell it out to the false compromise of replacing all other welfare and entitlement programs with it. For me at least the premise is "one should not have to work to have a stable, healthy, autonomous life" and if a version of UBI gets us closer to that I support it, and if it gets us further from that I oppose it.
― Sean, let me be clear (silby), Saturday, 4 June 2016 20:36 (eight years ago) link
This is why as I think I've said upthread I see the $15 min wage movement as a wedge and not a distraction. My political project (as far as labor goes) is that work isn't virtuous, and the USian idea that citizens can be reasonably expected to work as much as they are able for whatever they can get in order to merit consideration or assistance can be dismantled. I'd rather get to UBI slowly, through attainable victories decoupling survival further from labor, than all at once by striking a corrupt bargain with the neoliberal establishment and declaring success.
― Sean, let me be clear (silby), Saturday, 4 June 2016 20:41 (eight years ago) link
I just want lagoon to have plenty of time to post pictures of beers and coffees to ilx and not worry about a job
― μpright mammal (mh), Saturday, 4 June 2016 22:17 (eight years ago) link
For me at least the premise is "one should not have to work to have a stable, healthy, autonomous life"
how do you justify that? we're part of a community. it is only by working (defined broadly, as providing value to others) that we contribute to the health, happiness & success of the whole. if no one works, the community dies.
therefore, this isn't a question into which "should" enters. the community requires work in order to sustain itself. we shoulder that burden in order to be of use & value to others, to be not just nominal but functional parts of the collective. anything that makes us useful & valuable is our work, but the value of that work remains for others to determine.
i don't see any grounds for the argument that one should not have to work, unless it's based on the idea that we've somehow literally rendered work obsolete.
― the world over the crotch. (contenderizer), Saturday, 4 June 2016 22:58 (eight years ago) link
SONIA. What can we do? We must live our lives. [A pause] Yes, we shalllive, Uncle Vanya. We shall live through the long procession of daysbefore us, and through the long evenings; we shall patiently bear thetrials that fate imposes on us; we shall work for others without rest,both now and when we are old; and when our last hour comes we shallmeet it humbly, and there, beyond the grave, we shall say that we havesuffered and wept, that our life was bitter, and God will have pity onus. Ah, then dear, dear Uncle, we shall see that bright and beautifullife; we shall rejoice and look back upon our sorrow here; a tendersmile--and--we shall rest. I have faith, Uncle, fervent, passionatefaith. [SONIA kneels down before her uncle and lays her head on hishands. She speaks in a weary voice] We shall rest. [TELEGIN plays softlyon the guitar] We shall rest. We shall hear the angels. We shall seeheaven shining like a jewel. We shall see all evil and all our pain sinkaway in the great compassion that shall enfold the world. Our life willbe as peaceful and tender and sweet as a caress. I have faith; I havefaith. [She wipes away her tears] My poor, poor Uncle Vanya, you arecrying! [Weeping] You have never known what happiness was, but wait,Uncle Vanya, wait! We shall rest. [She embraces him] We shall rest. [TheWATCHMAN'S rattle is heard in the garden; TELEGIN plays softly; MME.VOITSKAYA writes something on the margin of her pamphlet; MARINA knitsher stocking] We shall rest.
The curtain slowly falls.
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 5 June 2016 00:24 (eight years ago) link
comments on the WSJ article? I just lurk ITT and don't really have the economic background to contribute but my skim-take on it was "most people use way more than $3K of Medicare a year and this article doesn't say anything about fixing health care" but I may have missed the part where the author just assumed that would happen.
― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Sunday, 5 June 2016 02:50 (eight years ago) link
i.e. what schwantz said
― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Sunday, 5 June 2016 02:51 (eight years ago) link
Tracer otm
― μpright mammal (mh), Sunday, 5 June 2016 04:20 (eight years ago) link
the community requires work in order to sustain itself
There's 'work' and there's involuntarily giving away a third of one's waking hours - at a bare minimum - to someone else to do something very probably boring, irritating, outside of one's interests and of doubtful benefit to the community.
― I've had Eno, ugh (ledge), Sunday, 5 June 2016 09:34 (eight years ago) link
Is there not a risk that, in the absence of full automation (or full communism), the irritating, unpleasant work would just increasingly fall to immigrants who, through the necessity of their labour to the functioning of the system, would be kept in perpetual limbo - forever denied citizenship that would give them equal access to basic income?
― On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Sunday, 5 June 2016 09:47 (eight years ago) link
How would we ever value 'benefit to the community' eh
― Daithi Bowsie (darraghmac), Sunday, 5 June 2016 09:48 (eight years ago) link
As ShariVari indicates some people may define 'community' more narrowly than others.
― I've had Eno, ugh (ledge), Sunday, 5 June 2016 10:49 (eight years ago) link
Switzerland seems to have voted against it by a margin of four to one.
Give the author is the racist crackpot libertarian Charles Murray, of Bell Curve fame, and has spent his entire career trying to find ways to destroy the welfare state I wouldn't assume he intends to fix anything.
― On a Raqqa tip (ShariVari), Sunday, 5 June 2016 12:47 (eight years ago) link
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.
― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Sunday, 5 June 2016 15:41 (eight years ago) link
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-mcdonnell-labour-universal-basic-income-welfare-benefits-compass-report
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 5 June 2016 19:06 (eight years ago) link
A personal essay from the interior, amongst people not finding work at any price
https://morecrows.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/unnecessariat/
― Sean, let me be clear (silby), Monday, 6 June 2016 17:40 (eight years ago) link
How Giving Free Money Actually Saves Money
https://medium.com/utopia-for-realists/why-do-the-poor-make-such-poor-decisions-f05d84c44f1a#.321hdio18
― reggie (qualmsley), Thursday, 9 June 2016 16:40 (eight years ago) link
have we gotten this rolling yet
― Sean, let me be clear (silby), Friday, 24 June 2016 19:26 (eight years ago) link
basic income is basic common sense at this late date in human habitat despoliation imho
― reggie (qualmsley), Friday, 24 June 2016 19:35 (eight years ago) link
lol this thread really brings it out, flopson jerking off to economic speculative fiction completely divorced from the real world suffering of the situation, tombot wanting ubi so he wont have to deal with incompetents who dare inhabit the same space as his genius
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 20 July 2016 13:12 (eight years ago) link
― μpright mammal (mh), Saturday, June 4, 2016 6:17 PM (1 month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
thank u for yr support lol
icymi
"During the decades after World War II, wages went up hand in hand with productivity. Since the mid-1970s, as union membership has declined, that’s largely stopped happening. Instead, most of the increased wealth from productivity gains has been seized by the people at the top.
Even conservative calculations show that if wages had gone up in step with productivity, families with the median household income of around $52,000 per year would now be making about 25 percent more, or $65,000. Alternately, if we could take the increased productivity in time off, regular families could keep making $52,000 per year but only work four-fifths as much – e.g., people working 40 hours a week could work just 32 hours for the same pay.
So more and better unions would almost certainly translate directly into higher pay and better benefits for everyone, including people not in unions."
https://theintercept.com/2016/09/05/happy-labor-day-there-has-never-been-a-middle-class-without-strong-unions/
― The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 15:14 (eight years ago) link
― lag∞n, Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:12 AM (one month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
bring it bitch
― flopson, Wednesday, 7 September 2016 15:25 (eight years ago) link
he brought it a month ago but you weren't home, maybe if u look he left it in the mailbox or something
― dr. mercurio arboria (mh 😏), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 15:26 (eight years ago) link
can u just.. not post
― flopson, Wednesday, 7 September 2016 15:50 (eight years ago) link
Still floppin
― 6 god none the richer (m bison), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 17:03 (eight years ago) link
I'm the only good poster in this thread.
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 17:04 (eight years ago) link
it's possible that you could schedule a redelivery from lagoon
― I look forward to hearing from you shortly, (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 17:22 (eight years ago) link
My posts might not be good but I still deserve your basic attention
― Anacostia Aerodrome (El Tomboto), Wednesday, 7 September 2016 17:38 (eight years ago) link
https://amp.businessinsider.com/givedirectly-basic-income-experiment-unexpected-trouble-2016-9
― Mordy, Thursday, 15 September 2016 22:49 (eight years ago) link
Basic income as charitable international aid is way more fraught than as a domestic policy for what I think are obvious reasons
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Thursday, 15 September 2016 23:20 (eight years ago) link
There have already been countless RTCs with unconditional cash transfers, idg how this one is suddenly testing UBI, it's neither universal nor basic
― flopson, Friday, 16 September 2016 14:33 (eight years ago) link
otm
it's not like people turn down tax credits
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, 16 September 2016 14:49 (eight years ago) link
the problem with ppl turning it down is it creates selection bias into treatment which is supposed to be random. but trust is a big problem with all these Development RCTs not unique to this one
also maybe I'm wrong Actually and maybe 1$ per day is basic
― flopson, Friday, 16 September 2016 15:37 (eight years ago) link
https://salon.thefamily.co/enough-with-this-basic-income-bullshit-a6bc92e8286b#.kj46ek8mv
Basic income is to the social state what the flat tax is to the tax system. It flatters the engineering mind with its apparent simplicity.
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, 6 October 2016 20:45 (seven years ago) link
if that guy got hit by a bus i would be ok with it
― Roberto Spiralli, Thursday, 6 October 2016 21:00 (seven years ago) link
Too much emphasis
― slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Thursday, 6 October 2016 21:04 (seven years ago) link
what's so attractive about basic income is that you don't have to actually organize collectively with actual dispossessed human beings to grab wealth back from elites, you just have to install BASIC_INCOME.EXE job done let's organize a conference to explain how we did it
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 6 October 2016 21:35 (seven years ago) link
That article was a mess. Seems like the writer was for a basic income + universal healthcare, but worried that it would be a political non-starter. Well yeah! No shit. That's why we're talking about it. If the jobs really do start drying up permanently, then maybe it becomes more possible.
― schwantz, Thursday, 6 October 2016 22:00 (seven years ago) link
yeah the article is terrible. the quote i pulled out (and tracer's point) is fair though imo.
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, 6 October 2016 22:03 (seven years ago) link
Yeah I guess so. I'm an engineer, and I admit I am drawn toward simple solutions. However, libertarianism is just plain stupid. I feel like there are a small (but loud) minority of libertarian engineers that:
a. Have horrible ideasb. Make any idea that comes from techies instantly suspect
Which is too bad, IMO. OTOH, techies seem to be running everything and hoovering up all the money in the economy these days, so boo hoo.
― schwantz, Thursday, 6 October 2016 22:35 (seven years ago) link
A basic income party (Bündnis Grundeinkommen) was founded in Munich two weeks ago; the platform consists of establishing a nationwide UBI, and disbanding the party immediately afterwards. UBI.EXE, now with installer cleanup utility, just in time for next year's Bundestag election.
― Wes Brodicus, Friday, 7 October 2016 08:18 (seven years ago) link
Simple. Elegant. Powerful.
http://zdnet1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2015/06/11/c6ae5747-100b-11e5-9a74-d4ae52e95e57/jobs-headshot-chin-102011.jpg
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 7 October 2016 08:21 (seven years ago) link
Having a basic income and rallying the dispossessed are not mutually exclusive imo.
― Wes Brodicus, Friday, 7 October 2016 08:39 (seven years ago) link
I quite liked the article myself. I don't agree with all of it, particularly where he's coming from with his digitization of all work implications, but I thought it was far from a "mess".
― Half-baked profundities. Self-referential smirkiness (Bob Six), Friday, 7 October 2016 12:01 (seven years ago) link
it's like a roaring geyser of missed points and false premises. you may enjoy his other recent work "actually trump is smart and tax avoidance is good" and "actually brexit is good"
― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 7 October 2016 12:53 (seven years ago) link
posted to the Netflix thread. There's a new French show called Trepalium which takes place in the near-ish future, about a society where there is only enough work for 20% of the population. A massive wall is built separating them from the other 80%. The latter live in rags and misery. The former live in sleek apartments and wear ridiculous outfits. A reforming politician strikes a deal with terrorists from the 80% who have been holding a government minister hostage for the last 10 years. They release the minister, and in exchange the elites agree to take 60,000 "non-workers" to live on the other side of the wall (doing what is not quite yet clear). it promises to be, at least in part, a meditation on whether work is what makes someone valuable or not.
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 12 November 2016 00:00 (seven years ago) link
I've come across two articles recently that show people in the know acknowledging this world is on it's way.
Michael Bloomberg
https://www.cnet.com/news/michael-bloomberg-trump-represents-the-scared-tech-taking-away-jobs/
Elon Musk
http://fortune.com/2016/11/06/elon-musk-universal-basic-income/
There examples of such worlds in many different science and pop fiction. Mega City One in the Judge Dredd comics is one example.
Mick Farren used this type of world in quite a few of his novels. There is one where people get into obsessively dressing up in period costuming that is kind of like cosplay as a way to get around the boredom.
Kurt Vonnegut's first novel seems pretty prescient in some ways, considering it was before the computer age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano_%28novel%29
― earlnash, Saturday, 12 November 2016 00:12 (seven years ago) link
I <3 me some Elon, but this is a little o_O
“Ultimately I think there will need to be some sort of improved symbiosis with digital superintelligence,” he said, “But that’s a pretty involved discussion.”
― schwantz, Saturday, 12 November 2016 07:36 (seven years ago) link
He also has come out and said he thinks it's highly probable that we're living inside a simulation
― El Tomboto, Saturday, 12 November 2016 17:46 (seven years ago) link