ILX, coach me up: the "White Straight Guy Who Sucks" Narrative and corresponding lack of "... Who Sucks" in anything other than indie snooze

yeah i'm pretty confused at this point what archetype we're shooting for now

i was thinking it is about a character who has a hamartia they over come in the end

Here are some female characters who manifestly do not have their shit together, until things miraculously start going right (after much tribulation): Bridget Jones. Romy and Michelle. Frances Ha. Seems like plenty of movies like "Trainwreck" and "Pitch Perfect" have that arc.

I mean, if you're just looking for inspiring overcoming-adversity stories featuring diverse protagonists, those are not in short supply; my daughter finds stuff like "The Gabby Douglas Story" and "Akeelah and the Bee" to be effectively girl-powery.

Abbott otm

I'm trying to remember if Wonderfalls counts.

At least I fully acknowledged this thread idea needed to go back in the oven in the OP

It's an interesting topic to explore. There's a germ of an alternate Bechdel test in there somewhere. It's probably always a good thing to investigate whether certain narrative tropes tend to favor straight white dudes.

I almost brought up Bridget Jones, then wondered if maybe hidden in the penumbras of the unstated questions was some desire that, basically, the story was not about romantic success/"getting a man" or otherwise measuring up to conventional norms of the straight-white-guy-dominated universe, etc. Like basically trying to get at a certain kind of "everyman" story where the "man" is definitely not neutral - it's "everyman" who's down on his luck and doesn't think he'll amount to much but then he wins the big game or rises to the occasion and beats the terrorists etc.... and to the extent that non-SWGs get these stories, a great many of them are about heteronormative romance success, OR about difficulties specifically associated with their non-SWGness (the Mulan/Brave/Bend It Like Beckham model). I don't think this is ironclad or without exceptions over the last decades of Hollywood productions - the Bechdel test gets at something way more ubiquitous and probably more insidious in screenwriting - but there's something kinda interesting here somewhere, IMO.

This topic gets a little bit at the question of the uses/purposes of cinema (and of fiction, and of art generally).

Oversmplifying wildly: Some people come to a movie (or novel or whatever) primarily to be taken very much out of themselves. Broadly, escapism and fantasy. Others primarily like to have characters they identify with. Broadly, realism and drama.

Perhaps the subgenre Tombot is trying to limn here is those works that try very hard to do both: the protagonist is "relatable" onnaconna being a fuckup. And yet he or she is thrust into extreme circumstances and prevails. Luke Skywalker (say) is a clod and a loser, but in the critical moment he rises to the occasion and saves the frickin' galaxy.

TBH the most recent exemplars I was thinking of when I started this thread are all stories about how an unexceptional person is put into extraordinary circumstances and doesn't do anything THAT amazing. "Against all odds" - where the odds are never really 100% against, btw - they make a modest contribution. And life goes on.

Actually hey Emily Blunt in Sicario might be this?
Every David Ayer film I've seen is totally this btw

We just watched The Kids Are Alright, and it's not exactly the formula you're looking for, but Julianne Moore is a good female anti-hero character.

if you INSIST the protagonist MUST be a total loser, i am still happy to star in a slapstick comedy about being a fat stoner based on me in my late 20s

― the lava-staring club (Abbott), Tuesday, July 12, 2016 1:05 PM (7 hours ago)

i forget, does 'smiley face' (arkai / anna faris) ever end up with anna faris like, succeeding?

Ok, I think I have a move that might actually fit the Straight White Chick who Sucks template: Adventures in Babysitting.

i think the lead character of The Bridge, especially in the original swedish/danish series, fits this perhaps?

I'm trying to remember if Wonderfalls counts.

― Night Jorts (Old Lunch), Wednesday, July 13, 2016 2:25 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wonderfalls is a great example, as is another Bryan Fuller show, Dead Like Me. Both featuring totally slacker, underachieving women who (very reluctantly) rise to the occasion and save the day.

speaking of babysitting: Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead. I guess "babysitter" was, for a window of time at least, a good archetype for the female unlikely hero.

collectively, the multiracial/ethnic/gender Bad News Bears

(well, Tatum O'Neal is an ace pitcher throughout, so not her)

(but her complicated girl/surrogate dad relationship w/ Matthau is not resolved til Act 3)

Adventures in Babysitting is a great pick.

It's probably always a good thing to investigate whether certain narrative tropes tend to favor straight white dudes.

― Night Jorts (Old Lunch), Tuesday, July 12, 2016 11:29 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think it is NOT a revelation that things favor straight white dudes, unfortunately
but why not use that as a given to EXPLORE other things NOT about them
rather than insist other people prove things NOT about str8 white dudes exist

we can all explore new things i believe in us

there are so many great things by and about lgbt, poc, non-male-identified, etc, people!!

and expecting them to fit a shitty archetype where 'lol oops wrong place at the wrong time accidentally saved the day' is...insane? like that is a really dumb plot archetype
and if it only exists w/cis white het men that is probably because they are the only people privilieged enough for that dumbshit magic to happen to

so...
why look for it?

Abbott is the unlikley hero of this thread

i just showed up...thanks for the crown

Brown / LGBT / Girl Who Sucks stories?

I thought the answer was going to be Wanda Sykes, but then I realized that wasn't a movie.

It's probably always a good thing to investigate whether certain narrative tropes tend to favor straight white dudes.

― Night Jorts (Old Lunch), Tuesday, July 12, 2016 11:29 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think it is NOT a revelation that things favor straight white dudes, unfortunately
but why not use that as a given to EXPLORE other things NOT about them
rather than insist other people prove things NOT about str8 white dudes exist

we can all explore new things i believe in us

― the lava-staring club (Abbott), Tuesday, July 12, 2016 10:46 PM (55 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think we might be saying similar things in different ways. It's pretty unquestionable that straight white dude tropes dominate the narrative landscape. It's examinations like this and largely unsuccessful attempts to jam round non-SWD character pegs into square SWD narrative holes that underscore, for me, how many other underexplored kinds of stories there are outside of the standard SWD dude experience.

and expecting them to fit a shitty archetype where 'lol oops wrong place at the wrong time accidentally saved the day' is...insane? like that is a really dumb plot archetype
and if it only exists w/cis white het men that is probably because they are the only people privilieged enough for that dumbshit magic to happen to

Totally agree with this! IMO movies like Inside Out or Clueless are generally better and more interesting than the "loser miraculously rises to the occasion" stories, because most people aren't completely ineffectual losers, so it's easier to relate to stories where are a fairly competent person has to overcome a problem caused by some personal flaw in her, or by outside forces pigeonholing her, rather than ones where some utter slacker magically saves the day, so that even the laziest of straight white guys would feel they don't need to better themselves in any way.

most people aren't completely ineffectual losers

Speak for yourself, Tuomas.

(Seriously the bit about how "utter slacker magically saves the day") is lazy straight white guy fantasy-fulfillment pr0n.

The relevant xkcd is http://xkcd.com/693/ ; you're welcome.

Yeah, Narnia seems a bit of a template for these.

Maybe I'm just trying to steer us this way, but I sort of thought we had veered away from protagonists who entirely suck (or are "utter slackers"), which is kinda more a thing in comedy things that make fun of their heroes anyway (Bill & Ted, e.g.)... and towards people who are in some way special and don't luck into their success, but do start the story at kind of a low point, unappreciated, put-upon, just got fired, whatever. But at this point I should probably bow out of the thread since the subject matter is so elusive anyway.

Abbott's list is good; Kristen Wiig's character in Bridesmaids, also. she doesn't suck at everything, but she experiences a spectacular confluence of failures/missteps over the course of the movie.

yeah the Narnia suggestion reminds me that this archetype is unsurprisingly Biblical (often fleshed out in the Middle Ages): several of the apostles, Mary, Joseph, Mary Magdalene, Jacob, and so on.

people who are in some way special and don't luck into their success, but do start the story at kind of a low point, unappreciated, put-upon, just got fired, whatever

Worthy point. Pursuit of Happyness protagonist is more like this than "utter loser who suddenly achieves miraculous levels of competence."

adventures in babysitting has really fucked up 80s reaganite crypto-racist politics. i can feel what a drag i'm being because i loved it as a kid--vincent d'onofrio!--but i can't help it. it's true. i think i wrote a post about it like 11 years ago on this here ilx.

"(Seriously the bit about how "utter slacker magically saves the day") is lazy straight white guy fantasy-fulfillment pr0n."

the adam sandler formula is deathless. and it is mostly men who get to play the part. though with t.v. now you get to see women play the part. on all the awful people sitcoms. the daughters of AbFab.

Citizen Ruth?

― pleas to Nietzsche (WilliamC), Monday, July 11, 2016 10:31 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is a good one but obv prob not to show to a young daughter.

also 'young adult', charlize still def sucks at the end but there is a realization/maturation and its valid/important imo

this is not exactly the same thing, but I realized a couple of years ago that the movie Adventures in Babysitting is a huge apologia for Reaganite politics. There are a bunch of different ways this manifests itself (including "scary" black people on the El and the fact that Elizabeth Shue=good guy because she's a virgin), but the scene that most fully drives it home is when the Elizabeth Shue character is on the phone with her friend, whose rescue is the whole impetus of the film. The friend is at a bus station which is portrayed as the deepest level of hell. The friend has commandeered a phone booth which is usually occupied by a homeless man. While friend is on the phone with ES, homeless man returns and knocks on the door of the phone booth, imploring, "that's my home!" ES's friend, with whom we're meant to sympathize, kicks the homeless man's personal effects out of the booth (I remember slippers) and shouts, "you just moved!" I used to love this movie, but it is some chilling shit to rewatch.
― horsehoe (horseshoe), Sunday, February 12, 2006 4:42 AM (10 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol "chilling" i was such a drama queen in 2006

wait, does molly shannon win at the end of Superstar? i forget. i think she wins. i don't know if she saves the day. i guess comedy is different though.

but if mr. smith goes to washington is an example, there must be movies where women use their wits to save the farm. but someone already discounted legally blonde. which is the updated version. was mr. smith really a fuckup and a loser before he passed a bill? i thought he was just a greenhorn who didn't know how to play the game.

Hah Places In The Heart is totally a version of this.

Miss Firecracker is one of my favorite movies about a loser who doesn't win at the end. but who ends up feeling okay anyway. HollyHunter4ever

Re: Adventures in Babysitting: I only remember the bit where she "sings" the "blues" assisted by appropriately sympathetic black musicians, to appropriately wild acclaim. Which totally happens all the time, in the clubs. You know, those blues clubs that I totally go to. All the time.

xp Or Woody Allen. And then he was able to create again!

this is not exactly the same thing, but I realized a couple of years ago that the movie Adventures in Babysitting is a huge apologia for Reaganite politics. There are a bunch of different ways this manifests itself (including "scary" black people on the El and the fact that Elizabeth Shue=good guy because she's a virgin), but the scene that most fully drives it home is when the Elizabeth Shue character is on the phone with her friend, whose rescue is the whole impetus of the film. The friend is at a bus station which is portrayed as the deepest level of hell. The friend has commandeered a phone booth which is usually occupied by a homeless man. While friend is on the phone with ES, homeless man returns and knocks on the door of the phone booth, imploring, "that's my home!" ES's friend, with whom we're meant to sympathize, kicks the homeless man's personal effects out of the booth (I remember slippers) and shouts, "you just moved!" I used to love this movie, but it is some chilling shit to rewatch.
― horsehoe (horseshoe), Sunday, February 12, 2006 4:42 AM (10 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol "chilling" i was such a drama queen in 2006

― horseshoe, Wednesday, July 13, 2016 9:35 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha amazing. I like your close reading, but I also think this was just kind of an 80s movie trope about NYC.

er, about cities, rather. I think it was Chicago.

it was chicago. you're probably right that it was all of those movies, but it feels particularly brazen in Adventures in Babysitting. particularly cold in its calculations about whose safety and well-being viewers are supposed to care about? i don't know. this is really not what this thread's about. good to discover i have had no new thoughts in 10 years.

"Fish out of water" is a hallowed comedy trope. In 80s movies it (at least sometimes) cut both ways, with the uptight whiteys being redemptively loosened by their surprise interactions with more-diverse influences. Cf. Beverly Hills Cop etc.

if i were going to write a book of cultural criticism about the 80s and reagan's cultural legacy and white flight and representations of blackness and the city, i would devote at least half a chapter to adventures in babysitting

i'd read it

Yeah. Maybe the whole trope is sort of conservative -- barbarians (homeless/"crazy people"/knife-wielding thugs) breaching the gates of the city and such.