Rolling Brexit Links/UK politics in the neo-Weimar era

i've heard 3 or 4 reporters on different radio stations run thru the same questions in the last few days re: Calais. "why did they travel through all those other countries?" "isn't feeding them and helping them to survive just exacerbating the problem?" "most of them have no right to be in the UK do they?" and round and round

any analysis of what drives people here in the first place is absent from these discussions, at least on the BBC side

it's that he didn't seem to try. this may not be true, but is a pretty mainstream belief afaict.

Yeah it's somehow both a mainstream belief that he wanted to Leave and that he didn't try hard enough to convince us otherwise. Remarkable fucking times for us all.

it's unfair to say that Corbyn campaigned to remain in bad faith; it doesn't then follow that he set the campaign trail alight, but he was hardly the only remain campaigner to be deficient in that regard, and of course remain didn't have the "lying" option available to them to make their case

His campaigning was a) Conservative-led Brexit is a scam to remove human/workers' rights, b) freedom of movement cuts both ways and how can it be right for capital to be mobile if people can't also move around c) TTIP is eeeevil and best to stay in Europe to fight it because a Conservative government would happily sign up for it and d) on balance, better in than out at this point in time.

Quite a few commentators praised Corbyn for being a lukewarm Remainer during the campaign because there were a great deal of people who had complaints about straight bananas etc but at the same time, were very happy to be able to retire to Spain and go through the quickie EU channel at the airport. Blaming him for Brexit is VERY disingenuous.

Not enough people listen to Corbyn or give a shit about what he says for him to really have swung the vote but he didn't really seem that arsed and probably isn't. But if your problem is that you're widely seen as well-intentioned but ineffectual then lukewarm campaigning on anything is going to be seized on.

The way May campaigned at the time wasn't particularly important given she wasn't leading a political party at the time. But it was extremely obvious to anyone paying attention that she was deliberately keeping her head down in order to alienate as few Tories as possible.

xp a professional footballer should try hard regardless of whether they have the personal capacity to influence the result. the ones that don't are loathed by fans. same deal.

― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 30 August 2016 15:39 (two hours ago) Permalink

LOL @ this thrash comparison.

See this has been pointed out but you know just making sure..

Going for a curry now lads.

Was he getting coverage for what campaigning he was doing anyway?
If he wasn't getting on tv because what coverage of the campaign there was was being devoted to other parties, then he's not going to be appearing to be doing his bit. When he could very easily be doing what he could and just getting media indifference.

He scored high on media appearances statistically but yes the extent of media hostility obscured his understandably timid reasoning with ease.

As for May I am not really sure she know quite what she's doing. Yes possibly making the Brexiters more accountable, or playing them against one another in her cab appointments except Johnson or Fox anywhere near negotiations could really fuck things up, making a bad deal with Europe even worse.

Hard to know what anyone could do - its such a fuck-up. Management of decline indeed.

I agree that I'm not sure she knows what she's doing - but then nobody does. My guess is that those appointments were a defensive move to ensure that a slender voting majority remains so. It was tactical rather than strategic and we all know where that got Cameron.

Maybe if Corbyn had rolled up his sleeves, sweated profusely and pointed his fingers at things it would have made it look like he was trying harder. What did more damage to the Remain campaign more than any of Corbyn's perceived lukewarmness was all these arrogant old Blairite lags getting wheeled out from their £1m per annum day jobs in the banking system to tell people how to vote and of course Eddie Izzard on QT.

Geldof on the Thames is often mentioned too.

yeah, that was double-nauseating as well.

pointed his fingers at things

his inside leg measurement?

Almost all Leave-voters knew how they would vote long before all the shit stunts and campaigning. They just didn't know they'd actually win.

I feel like boris won it, actually.

When he was comparing the EU to the third reich he was probably connecting to more of the UK electorate than anyone patiently talking about pertinent issues like employment rights and the dangers of giving the Tory right another free hand on you.

I think the EU as a political entity is so complex and such a new type of thing that traditional political rhetoric, the idea of people on opposite podiums being passionately for or against something in front of the public, is just not capable of dealing with the topic. To really understand the benefits of membership you need to have a certain level of education and/or a professional interest in the subject. Likewise, the genuine problems with the EU (not the made-up square bananas, but things like the treatment of Greece) are equally complex.

But the 'referendum' framing device, with its only two answers, a yes or a no, enforces this trad thing of people getting on podiums and being for or against, which is great news for bullshitters who don't mind lying through their teeth about square bananas but bad news for people like Corbyn.

Corbyn 62%. Purge the time-wasters.

Another day, another great Cardamon post.

I've talked to the mods about having a fb-style 'like' button on ILX but that is only on my posts and it can't actually be pressed

was with you until the "a certain level of education" bit

The electorate are a bunch of hateful bastards, but if you are trying to say those without further education are too thick to vote - it is a pretty fucked up post is what I was driving at.

I think 'education in the subject' and 'education' are different in this context though. The positives and negatives of the EU are not always easy to grasp but the fault lies with the people who are supposed to be able to convey them in a clear and professional manner rather than the electorate.

Owen Smith is proof that even people with a top class education in this country can be still be thick as pigshit.

I might be reading Cardamons post wrong, but he does have previous for making ridiculous and hateful comments about the working classes.

I think 'informed' is better to use in this context than 'educated'. I don't think it's controversial to say that the public has been badly informed by the press and by politicians - which is distinct from 'education' in a more general context.

well yes, all the high octane hate speak going doing the rounds during the referendum was certainly not informing anybody about the real consequences of a brexit.

Just wanna remake the old point that as a voter the extent to which you try to inform yourself is at least partly a consequence of how much good you believe any outcome will do you

I'm hugely uncomfortable to the extent to which Brexit has been laid squarely at the door of post-industrial (primarily) working class constituencies, whilst the MASSIVE prosperous-but-disgruntled Southern shire Tory Brexit vote (without which Leave would not have won) gets ignored completely.

I know of a few shire Tory voters who went Brexit for reasons of 'oh, fuck it' thinking Leave would lose. One of them thinks Farage is absolutely a fascist who is giving voice to some truly disgusting people, so I cannot for the life of me figure out why a Leave vote would appeal, even as protest (this particular person isn't a racist).

Been interested in the parallel between Leave votes as a fuck you to X and Corbyn votes as a fuck you to Y. There is similar reaction and behaviour within both camps (with some evident if slight overlap).

Yep, and also a pretty big parallel with Trump votes as a fuck you to Z, I think.

NS dross of the week:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/08/jeremy-corbyns-fans-must-learn-art-compromise

Similarly, while Corbyn and his supporters know what they’re against, they have not yet articulated a clear vision of what they’re for, much less how it can be achieved.

Amazing how this is trotted out again and again, doing the exact same convenient ignoring of things that have actually happened that he accuses supporters of.

if Labour is to have a future as a political force, Corbyn’s supporters must learn to respect the historic purpose of the Labour party at least as much as they admire the high principles of its current leader. There isn’t long for that realisation to take hold.

The fuck does this even mean? There's no explanation of suggestion beyond 'learn to compromise'.

Sorry I realise this should all be on the Corbyn thread, keep conflating.

I'm hugely uncomfortable to the extent to which Brexit has been laid squarely at the door of post-industrial (primarily) working class constituencies, whilst the MASSIVE prosperous-but-disgruntled Southern shire Tory Brexit vote (without which Leave would not have won) gets ignored completely.

^^^^^^^^^ Same old same old though, only working class tossers are racist.

In this context, idk if anyone would be able to argue that the Tory Brexit shires were any more 'informed' about the EU than anyone else.

the MASSIVE prosperous-but-disgruntled Southern shire Tory Brexit vote (without which Leave would not have won)

Are there any analyses of this vote, or articles which even speculate in passing?

I grew up in or at least on the edge of these places, much of my family lives in them, and I don't really understand it. I was surprised by it on results night tbh

I live in a bubble now because I live in 90%-Remain university town and meet people mostly through evening classes for European languages so duh, but I still don't really get what is different between the very pro-EU retired teachers who make up half my evening class and own big houses in Oxfordshire, and the leave-voting retired teachers at my mum's language classes who own big houses in Dorset

Another dumb and naive observation but hey: before the election whenever I travelled through the countryside there were big Leave banners up on fields, which initially didn't surprise me because I always expect to disagree with political banners on farmland and country estates, but then I thought, surely these people get a lot of money from EU farming subsidies and will be keen to hang on to that?

the heart wants what the heart wants

Tory MPs themselves were only around 42% in favour of Leave. Even if you add on most undeclared it'd surely stay under half. I'd have though Southern (or just nationwide as a whole) Tory voters could only amount to slightly higher than that in turn.

58% of Tory voters voted Leave. Labour voters, 37% .

The electorate are a bunch of hateful bastards, but if you are trying to say those without further education are too thick to vote - it is a pretty fucked up post is what I was driving at.

I wasn't trying to say that, but 'certain education' basically implies that regardless of my intention, so fair enough.

I meant something more like, if you worked in B&Q and you were supposed to explain to someone which particular screws and timbers you thought were most suitable for the job, but it had to be YES or NO and said with great conviction.

Anyone who actually cared about screws and timbers and wanted to give an honest, helpful answer would perform badly, because in reality the best buy depends on a bunch of factors and it's a technical rather than a passionate discussion. Whereas someone who's willing to just say 'These screws over here are just as bad as the Third Reich, you want THESE screws because they'll make you free' is basically going to sell the most screws.

Like, it seems as though people are saying that Corbyn should have somehow found a way to argue strongly and with enough theatrics to convince people to vote Remain, and yet also to be honest and not to lapse into spin/project fear. I mean, yeah, that would have been nice, but in terms of how you'd go about it, I'm all out. Not a clue how one would do that or if anyone even could. As far as I can see the YES/NO framing makes it impossible.

perhaps 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 has some suggestions

xp
sorry, i probably overreacted to + misread your post a bit on reflection. I'm going through a bit of a stressful period atm and am tetchy + thin skinned, definitely not interested in getting into or maintaining any online beefs.

No yeah it wouldn't be the first time my phrasing has been so poor as to not really be an excuse

if i'm concern trolling by pointing out what is, rightly or wrongly, a pretty endemic belief outside the canarysphere then i apologise

seemed worth explaining since some people here seem genuinely mystified that corbyn isn't doing better.

i don't think i've said at any point whether i think it's a justified criticism so to be clear: it isn't. unfortunately people who we disagree with have the right to vote in general elections.