I've had people say it's a hardening, actually ~ US presidential election 2016 part 9/11 never forget

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encouraging Nader and Naderism in any way was careless & boded ill for the future. It set a terrible example. I say this as a guy who voted Nader and had a Nader-LaDuke sign in his front yard. I feel like an asshole for it now but what can you do, you grow, you ask questions like "would that dude actually have made a good president?" (A: of course not) instead of "was the he guy who shared my values most" (naturally, but it's not actually about that)

― though she denies it to the press, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, September 15, 2016 10:53 AM (twenty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's always been way more fascinating to me to try to imagine how a President Nader would have reacted/responded to 9/11 than how a President Gore would have

I wish you could see my home. It's... it's so... exciting (Jon not Jon), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:29 (seven years ago) link

either way Trump is a pathetic human being who melts down at the smallest slight and yet we want to elect him as the most criticized man in the world. cool

frogbs, Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:30 (seven years ago) link

now that Sanders is not the candidate, what next? wallow in regrets? paralysis? internet flame wars?

however you feel about Sanders vs. Clinton, that chapter is over. Time to move on and decide how you want to approach the current situation, rather than getting stuck on the previous one.

various xposts

Al Moon Faced Poon (Moodles), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:30 (seven years ago) link

'a lot of people are saying crooked hilary is having trouble with her prostate, real bad trouble' xxxp

a very in-your-face, hard-edged machine bottom (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:30 (seven years ago) link

btw I love how he slams Hillary over and over about the Iraq war vote and then goes and claims he'd start a war with Iran if someone gave him the finger

frogbs, Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:30 (seven years ago) link

i live in New York so have no influence whatsoever xxp

does the 500th rep of that get through?

The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:31 (seven years ago) link

It's too bad Mother Teresa is dead. I would've relished Trump's recap of their meeting.

ALL TACOE'S 1/2 HALF "OFF" (Old Lunch), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:31 (seven years ago) link

xposts

Morbz, I understand your vote doesn't count for much, but you clearly have a lot to say about everyone else's choices. What are you suggesting for the upcoming election for all the people who's votes matter? or are you just saying that all choices are bad and anyone participating in the system at all is guilty?

This may be an exercise in futility, but I'm trying to push the conversation forward a bit from just endlessly flaming everyone that has a different opinion than you, to actually providing a substantive stance or course of action.

Al Moon Faced Poon (Moodles), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:38 (seven years ago) link

good luck and godspeed

¶ (DJP), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:39 (seven years ago) link

Trump attacks the pastor who dared to shush him in public.
http://www.npr.org/2016/09/15/494064219/trump-criticizes-flint-pastor-but-misstates-key-facts-about-their-encounter

maybe this is wishful thinking but I'd like to see this blow up in the media please, if nothing more than for more evidence of Donald Trump being a pathological liar

frogbs, Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:39 (seven years ago) link

like maybe y'all could make this Capt. Khan Pt 2, we could certainly use it

frogbs, Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:40 (seven years ago) link

Right on cue punditocracy peddling this "close race" nonsense

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:41 (seven years ago) link

you will feel like more of an asshole two years into the next admin

no, I'm probably going to think "how much worse this would be if Donald Trump had won? sure am glad the less bad candidate won!" a whole lot. I will bet you thirty million dollars U.S. that I'll never once in my life think "you know who would have been awesome at getting us out of our present predicament? Jill Stein!" or it that's not enough money, forty million. infinity dollars. that is how many dollars I'll bet that I never once think "Jill Stein would have been better at this"

though she denies it to the press, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:45 (seven years ago) link

encouraging Nader and Naderism in any way was careless & boded ill for the future. It set a terrible example. I say this as a guy who voted Nader and had a Nader-LaDuke sign in his front yard. I feel like an asshole for it now but what can you do, you grow, you ask questions like "would that dude actually have made a good president?" (A: of course not) instead of "was the he guy who shared my values most" (naturally, but it's not actually about that)

― though she denies it to the press, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, September 15, 2016 10:53 AM (forty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

people who voted for nader did not vote for him (necessarily) because they thought he would make a good president, dude. it's about showing the party that not everyone's votes can be taken for granted. you fucking know this, you've said it more times than probably anyone on this board

have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:45 (seven years ago) link

i'm not voting jill stein btw because she is an embarrassment but that's another story

have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:46 (seven years ago) link

people who voted for nader did not vote for him (necessarily) because they thought he would make a good president, dude. it's about showing the party that not everyone's votes can be taken for granted.

a) Then what if he had won?
b) How'd that work out for them?

Cumstaun (Phil D.), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:47 (seven years ago) link

it's about showing the party that not everyone's votes can be taken for granted.

i understand this is the motivation but is there any reason to believe that this is logical at all?

Mordy, Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:47 (seven years ago) link

I'm so nervous about the election right now for whatever reason I can't concentrate on work. I just want Trump to get flung out into space so I can go back to living a comfortable life. Like straight into the sun on a beautiful morning up at our family beach house as we're relaxing and drinking coffee and planning ahead for a visit to a cute little nearby restaurant that serves the BEST pistachio cake. It just melts in your mouth.

Evan, Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:48 (seven years ago) link

people who voted for nader did not vote for him (necessarily) because they thought he would make a good president, dude. it's about showing the party that not everyone's votes can be taken for granted.

a) Then what if he had won?
b) How'd that work out for them?

― Cumstaun (Phil D.), Thursday, September 15, 2016 11:47 AM (thirty seconds ago)

he...wasn't....going to win

have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:48 (seven years ago) link

you may have heard about this two party system we are a part of and how third party candidates tend to do

have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:48 (seven years ago) link

no one votes for Stein or Nader based on what kinds of POTUS s/he'll be bcz s/he won't be one. you know, just like when i voted for Mondale.

The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:49 (seven years ago) link

xxxp to Moodles: for swing staters, i can't manage more than 'vote for Clinton while wearing a I HATE CLINTON tee', or

@DennisThePerrin Jul 26
If you must vote for Hillary, fine. But spare me the piety. There's nothing noble in what you're doing.

The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:49 (seven years ago) link

it's about showing the party that not everyone's votes can be taken for granted.

i understand this is the motivation but is there any reason to believe that this is logical at all?

― Mordy, Thursday, September 15, 2016 11:47 AM (one minute ago)

idk, it's about as logical as voting for the dem, isn't it? when your vote is meaningless?

have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:49 (seven years ago) link

it's amazing how spring's "ugh, i can't vote for Bernie bcz of his couple thousand abusive and anonymous Twitter troll supporters" has dovetailed into fall's "You must vote for the candidate John Negroponte, Robert Kagan and dozens of other neocon butchers are enthusiastically endorsing."

The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:52 (seven years ago) link

"...even in an uncontested state, for the VIRTUE of it"

The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:52 (seven years ago) link

Also the beach is quite rocky so at low tide it's fun to try to turn the biggest rocks over because usually they have the most/biggest crabs underneath. You can catch them by pinching their back and if you catch two you can get them to hold hands. Meanwhile Trump would be hurtling towards the sun.

Evan, Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:53 (seven years ago) link

putting up a candidate for president every four years is not really a productive strategy to promote third parties imo

marcos, Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:53 (seven years ago) link

you may have heard about this two party system we are a part of and how third party candidates tend to do

Exactly. So if they aren't going to win, and the parties care fuck-all about any "signaling function" (which it's pretty obvious they don't, since neither has moved appreciably towards the positions of any third parties) then that leaves . . . what?

idk, it's about as logical as voting for the dem, isn't it? when your vote is meaningless?

Being able to claim a vast majority of the popular vote -- and thus the unquestioned support of most of the nation -- when trying to get shit passed in office is not meaningless.

Cumstaun (Phil D.), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:56 (seven years ago) link

it's amazing how spring's "ugh, i can't vote for Bernie bcz of his couple thousand abusive and anonymous Twitter troll supporters" has dovetailed into fall's "You must vote for the candidate John Negroponte, Robert Kagan and dozens of other neocon butchers are enthusiastically endorsing."

Yeah, all ten of those people really piss me off.

Cumstaun (Phil D.), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:58 (seven years ago) link

xxxp to Moodles: for swing staters, i can't manage more than 'vote for Clinton while wearing a I HATE CLINTON tee', or

@DennisThePerrin Jul 26
If you must vote for Hillary, fine. But spare me the piety. There's nothing noble in what you're doing.

The flip side of this is that there's nothing particularly evil about it either. Maybe Hillary supporters can stop patting themselves on the back and Hillary haters can stop shitting all over them.

Al Moon Faced Poon (Moodles), Thursday, 15 September 2016 15:58 (seven years ago) link

When people assess the viability of third-party candidates, they tend to look at vote counts - including the votes that were cast in safe states. For good or for ill, Johnson and Stein's candidacies emerged in a context that includes the precedents of Perot, Nader, Buchanan, etc. And those campaigns were themselves informed by candidates like Anderson and Thurmond and so on.

Inevitably, tomorrow's third-party candidates will feel emboldened by every vote cast for Johnson and Stein, whether those votes happened in California, Florida, or Nebraska. At the same time, money, media attention, and the endless swirls of analysis from the pundit and poli-sci crowd will have to contend with those votes, and adjust to the fact of their presence.

So regardless of how you feel about third-party candidates in the abstract, or these third-party candidates in particular, I disagree that any vote is ever meaningless.

there is water at the bottom of the ocean (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:01 (seven years ago) link

Is it even conceivable that voting has no moral content whatsoever

slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:01 (seven years ago) link

people who voted for nader did not vote for him (necessarily) because they thought he would make a good president, dude. it's about showing the party that not everyone's votes can be taken for granted. you fucking know this, you've said it more times than probably anyone on this board

yeah I know. I find that opinion embarrassing now. I don't give a fuck if the less bad party takes my vote for granted. they should take my vote for granted, because it is a given that I'm going to vote for whichever viable candidate will do less harm to the people who have less than I do, who need more help from government, who need the legislation that Democrats might pass and that Republicans won't. this seems self-evident to me now and I feel moronic that it took me as long as it did to come around to this conclusion. I don't sweat feeling moronic, I'm slow on the uptake sometimes and I'm cool w/that, but it's surprising to me that sharper thinkers than me -- yrself, not blowing smoke here, just saying -- don't come around this view quicker than I have.

though she denies it to the press, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:06 (seven years ago) link

It's an equally valid option, in many cases, to stay home and JO as George Carlin suggested.

Being able to claim a vast majority of the popular vote -- and thus the unquestioned support of most of the nation -- when trying to get shit passed in office is not meaningless.

Did you notice, Democrats rubberstamped the Forever Wars of a guy who didn't even win the popular vote.

The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:06 (seven years ago) link

Yeah, all ten of those people really piss me off.

learn to count
that HRC is welcoming the endorsement of even one of them disqualifies her.

The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:07 (seven years ago) link

more or less than an endorsement from David Duke?

Al Moon Faced Poon (Moodles), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:11 (seven years ago) link

I completely agree that the wests behaviour during the Iran-Iraq war was despicable, but I fail to see why that means the west shouldn't have stopped the invasion of Kuwait or the use of chemical weapons on the kurds?

― Frederik B, Thursday, September 15, 2016 4:24 AM (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ok I really don't want to keep coming back to the subject ITT, but the United States not only did not "stop" the use of chemical weapons on the Kurds, it rationalized it away and even tried to blame it on Iran.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/17/opinion/halabja-america-didnt-seem-to-mind-poison-gas.html

the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:11 (seven years ago) link

Right on cue punditocracy peddling this "close race" nonsense

― Οὖτις, Thursday, September 15, 2016 11:41 AM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Keep whistlin' past that graveyard...how's Hillary this morning, by the way? must be tough staying in Chappaqua with Bill "dickin' bimbos" down the hall as General Yellowcake opined LOL

Iago Galdston, Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:12 (seven years ago) link

Not bad thanks, how's the temp in your mom's basement?

the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:13 (seven years ago) link

Creative Circle has got to stop sending people to Iago's mom's basement

Evan, Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:15 (seven years ago) link

people who voted for nader did not vote for him (necessarily) because they thought he would make a good president, dude. it's about showing the party that not everyone's votes can be taken for granted. you fucking know this, you've said it more times than probably anyone on this board
yeah I know. I find that opinion embarrassing now. I don't give a fuck if the less bad party takes my vote for granted. they should take my vote for granted, because it is a given that I'm going to vote for whichever viable candidate will do less harm to the people who have less than I do, who need more help from government, who need the legislation that Democrats might pass and that Republicans won't. this seems self-evident to me now and I feel moronic that it took me as long as it did to come around to this conclusion. I don't sweat feeling moronic, I'm slow on the uptake sometimes and I'm cool w/that, but it's surprising to me that sharper thinkers than me -- yrself, not blowing smoke here, just saying -- don't come around this view quicker than I have.

― though she denies it to the press, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, September 15, 2016 12:06 PM (five minutes ago)

no i mean i get it. i hope hillary wins, 100%. but i live in new york. i am gonna go to the polls in november and (probably) leave the presidential ballot blank and vote straight dem for the rest of the ticket. i have a hard time believing that even the most diehard "you must vote hillary" partisans would see that as some sort of dereliction of duty.

but idk, maybe that gets to what the real issue is -- lack of enthusiasm for the top of the ticket causing otherwise-dem voters to stay home. i'll be voting, and i'd encourage all of my like-minded thinkers to do the same, but i'm aware that's not the case universally. i'm not sure how to fix that

have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:17 (seven years ago) link

So you can show me more than 10 people who didn't vote for Bernie SPECIFICALLY "bcz of his couple thousand abusive and anonymous Twitter troll supporters" but are voting for Hillary BECAUSE "John Negroponte, Robert Kagan and dozens of other neocon butchers are enthusiastically endorsing her?" Awesome!! I'll spot you Fre . . . oh, wait, he's Danish, he doesn't vote here. Well, excelsior!

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Cumstaun (Phil D.), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:21 (seven years ago) link

xp

*whispering* that's why we need to depresidentialize the political system

anyway, 3 polls in a row show trump ahead in ohio. welp!

goole, Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:22 (seven years ago) link

I just want Trump to get flung out into space so I can go back to living a comfortable life. Like straight into the sun on a beautiful morning up at our family beach house as we're relaxing and drinking coffee and planning ahead for a visit to a cute little nearby restaurant that serves the BEST pistachio cake. It just melts in your mouth.

even more quiddities and agonies of the ruling class - a new rolling new york times thread

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:23 (seven years ago) link

pretty sure that "OHHHH THE ABUSIVE BERNIEBROS!" line emanated from the campaign. A lot of the people who "bought" it were in-the-tank Hillary supporters like Amanda Marcotte and Sady Doyle. I don't think it had that big an impact on Sanders' chances, much more significant was the media's failure to take him as seriously as his popular support would urge. They still think presidential candidates are supposed to look and sound like Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush -- it's the same phenomenon that resulted in no one predicting that Trump could win (or that Sanders could do as well as he did).

the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:28 (seven years ago) link

I know it makes sense from a logic/math standpoint but something always makes my skin itch about people who trumpet the meaninglessness of their individual vote due to geography. I know I'm biased by living in a swing state but I would be really bummed about my circumstances if I lived in New York or California or somewhere similar. Personally I think I'd be a little embarrassed if it was so much easier for me to show off my little ideological purity badge.

evol j, Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:28 (seven years ago) link

hey i wish my vote mattered! if you wanna get rid of the electoral college i'll be first to sign that petition

have you ever even read The Drudge Report? Have you gone on Stormfron (k3vin k.), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:30 (seven years ago) link

man alive, again, that happened during the Iran-Iraq war, and the shittiness of the US behaviour in that war should definitely be remembered, see also the Al-Anfal campaign and the downing of Iran Air Flight 655. Saddam Hussein acted atrociously with US support. But he stopped, and to say that sanctions, no-fly zones, etc had nothing to do with it seems off. And also, he did actually get rid of the WMD's he'd had and been willing to use, though then Bush lied about it anyway.

Frederik B, Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:32 (seven years ago) link

We're stuck with the EC for as long as we are stuck with the US Senate in the form currently mandated by the US Constitution. iow, forever.

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:35 (seven years ago) link

but are voting for Hillary BECAUSE "John Negroponte...

*sigh* poor comprehension

The Hon. J. Piedmont Mumblethunder (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:40 (seven years ago) link


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