I've had people say it's a hardening, actually ~ US presidential election 2016 part 9/11 never forget

Nate Silver is saying the veep debate could have a wide range of impact from being forgotten in 24 hours to causing a huge green scaly monster to invade Huntsville, AL

https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/783645247247114240

i had no idea Pence looked like the cave critters in The Descent

lol Neanderthal

A preview of 2020, after Pence has had four more years of work done to his mug:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/cenobite/images/0/08/Chatterer-bust-.jpg

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2016/10/04/bill-weld-says-will-use-libertarian-vice-presidential-platform-focus-fire-donald-trump/NQcxRVjXXeIY2mfhVXvyKP/story.html

lol this is great

I'd love to hear from Dan and my Massachusetts brethren about William Weld, for whom I've had polite respect for years until he hooked up with a rock climber who doesn't own a world atlas.

Weld was governor when I started college; he is genuinely a socially-liberal/fiscally-conservative type and willing to compromise in order to solve problems. I also sang with his niece in undergrad.

the northeastern US flavor of republican not as objectionable, imo

I mean, until they start marketing themselves to the whole country in a presidential campaign. I don't think Weld could market himself as a republican nationally, leading to where he is now

Yeah, he doesn't have the same disingenuous streak as Romney.

that pence ad is pretty great

I'd love to hear from Dan and my Massachusetts brethren about William Weld,

I was living but not voting in Massachusetts in the time, but I would have voted for him against noted asshole albeit Democrat John Silber

I only head about Silber after the fact since I got to the state shortly after the election; I would have voted against him, too.

Charles Pierce has a lot of respect for Weld:

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a45382/william-weld-libertarian-ticket/

I remember Weld's losing his Senate race against Kerry.

I also sang with his niece in undergrad.

isn't there a freshman dorm named after his family?

There is!

that pence ad was great...maybe that was kaine's marching orders huh?

ol'lunch

I really, really hope that lots of 'Hmmm, maybe Pence should've been the nominee' thinkpieces get floated over the next couple of days. Trump will flip his effing wig.

Dana Milbank is way ahead of you, he was already talking "buyer's remorse" shortly after midnight

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mike-pence-gives-republicans-buyers-remorse/2016/10/05/8be23d9c-8a72-11e6-bff0-d53f592f176e_story.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paiBwhs2L7Q

There's a whole lotta fun headlines today like 'Everybody Won the VP Debate But Trump'. Between that and the new ad, how long can Trump possibly keep quiet? Will he make it an entire 24 hours without planting his foot in his mouth?

I love how unwilling the media is to call Pence the clear winner. Kaine was just awful. As far as swaying undecided voters, Pence did such a good job on style, and if you're still undecided at this point, you are a clinical moron, so content does not matter!!! This is a nice little key bump for Trump, but it'll be forgotten soon. LOVE these stories coming out that Trump is pissed that he was upstaged by his running mate, more please!

Has anyone seen Trump commercials after the debate? This time the pundits actually seem to think the republican won, so perhaps they would tout that?

Didn't see the debate, but the Clinton camp has been remarkable at stitching clips together to make Kaine seem smart and honest.

To echo what I said here during the debate, Kaine may not have come off as well but he certainly had less trouble navigating criticisms. Pence on the other hand, as much practice as he has deflecting- there was just no way he could possibly steer around the massive Trump turds Kaine merely needed to point at. Flat out denying them was interesting but it is damn pretty short sighted when there is blatant video evidence proving pretty much every single instance. To me that suggests that their koolaid is so strong internally that none of them even fathomed that it would be something they need to prepare to respond to. Like they really believe that Trump isn't on tape spouting this shit. Or else, with all of the days of debate prep Pence is implied to have had dedicated, they surely would have prepared something more like a justification rather than flat out denial?

Never forget: Pence is a product of talk radio. He knows how to modulate tone and deal with callers even more livid than he.

I feel like when Kaine was getting ready to respond he sat up straighter, angled his face a certain way and was ready to deliver his lines.. seeing that new ad I understand why. pretty well done.

If one were inclined to grant the GOP a degree of intelligence and strategic ability, one might float a conspiracy theory that Trump was allowed to become the nominee because, as such an extreme outlier, he's able to completely short out the opposition's compass re: their party's general debasement, thereby giving less extreme candidates a much better shot in future elections. I'll admit, I found it difficult last night to keep reminding myself of what a turd Pence is because he's operating so high above the discursive bar that Trump has lowered.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ct-ErIEW8AAnkxk.jpg

heh

https://twitter.com/Slate/status/783385174792818689

If one were inclined to grant the GOP a degree of intelligence and strategic ability, one might float a conspiracy theory that Trump was allowed to become the nominee because, as such an extreme outlier, he's able to completely short out the opposition's compass re: their party's general debasement, thereby giving less extreme candidates a much better shot in future elections. I'll admit, I found it difficult last night to keep reminding myself of what a turd Pence is because he's operating so high above the discursive bar that Trump has lowered.

The problem with that strategy is that while it makes some amount of sense long-term, it requires careful management of the seething nativist horde they have whipped up in the short term and relies on them remaining a significant portion of their coalition when they pivot back towards seeming reasonableness; this may be a problem when they people currently buoying them are feeding off of the blatant unreasonableness their tar baby* candidate has whipped up.

* This is an accurate description of Trump assuming a GOP long-term rope-a-dope strategy that I use knowing full well the inherent irony.

It made more sense in the primaries and kind of worked - Trump made John Kasich look moderate to a lot of people who didn't know much about him. Then Trump won, oops.

xp

The 'conspiracy theory' that Trump was given the nomination so he could flame out and allow less extreme candidates a better chance in the future makes no sense if you think about it for more than a minute. You can't 'allow' someone extreme to win unless there is already either a majority or a near-majority of extremists in your voting base to vote for him. In which case, Trump is no "outlier". He represents the party grassroots pretty damn well.

it would be more interesting to think about conspiracy theories if everything that has happened didn't already make so much sense

I think it's reasonable to assume that GOP leadership already knows what their base is like; the gigantic miscalculation inherent in the strategy is that the mere existence of the Tea Party shows that it's a base that is extremely tired of being misdirected by its establishment leaders.

Yeah, it's a bullshit theory in terms of anyone intentionally steering the ship but I can see it becoming an unfortunate consequence of Trump's candidacy. Just reflect on how many people who were horrified by his tenure have recently spoken with any kindness about W.

conspiracy theories need somebody to run them, and it's pretty apparent that the gop leadership isn't really in control of anything at this point. they're not playing some strategic long game anymore, their long game was 'we're gonna appeal to hispanics' a few years ago and they ended up a candidate who called mexicans rapists and murderers.

Spending about 15 minutes on the less, ah, seedier parts of right wing media world this morning, I noticed few people crowing about last night. The line is "Damn, Pence was good, a shame he's only Trump's running mate."

xpost Why I prefaced my bullshit theory with 'if one were inclined to grant the GOP a degree of intelligence and strategic ability'. Because I am not.

rich lowry has no luck: the serious conservative beard pops up just as he's said fuck it and joined daddy's street team xp

wait, Gary Johnson actually said "Maybe I'm not meant to be President" in an interview recently?

if you wanna talk conspiracy theories, gary johnson is clearly performance art

I'm inclined to think that Trump will soon be sending a lot of press clippings to GOP pundits praising Pence's performance, scrawled with "WRONG!" in his personal handwriting.

xpost Why I prefaced my bullshit theory with 'if one were inclined to grant the GOP a degree of intelligence and strategic ability'. Because I am not.

It's a terrible strategy, though! The most likely outcome is adding more insane uncontrollable wild cards to your base.

I don't think they 'ran this strategy' on purpose, but they effectively ran it by legitimizing genuinely insane people like palin, bachmann etc. over the last decade. so trump is more of an end result of the strategy than part of it. the end result isn't 'more bargaining power when you pivot back', the end result is the monkeys take over the circus.

thereby giving less extreme candidates a much better shot in future elections

This assumes there will be future elections in which Republicans can be competitive. I'm skeptical about that.

I agree with Rudy Giuliani in exactly one respect: there is no next election. This is it. If Tromp wins, his comic-book-level nationalist/racist populism (with foreign policy reduced to the single word "strength") is validated and becomes the dominant political style. The Federal workforce is demoralized, disaffected, afraid, cynical. Retirements increase; n00bz founder without a professional public-sector mentor class

If Clinton wins, something like Obama's cautiously progressive, workmanlike, mostly competent political style dominates the Executive Branch. The public sector breathes a sigh of relief and the trains keep running (mostly). Meanwhile, demographic churn makes the Tea Partiers ever more irrelevant. They don't get less angry or less paranoid or less gunphilic, they just get increasingly marginalized and left behind. Every once in a while they'll occupy a bird sanctuary or something and it'll be headlines for a few days.

The rest of the country marches forward into an uncertain future, but with a more inclusive, optimistic spirit that befits the new realities.

Every once in a while they'll occupy a bird sanctuary or something

yeah, or something

Good lord the youtube commenters on that Kellyanne interview, Trump supporters truly are a basket of deplorables.

Retirements increase; n00bz founder without a professional public-sector mentor class

afaict this has already been happening in congress, which probably contributes to its (diminished) stature these days

the new fascist demo overlaps w the tea party but these people are not all boomers finally smashing everything on their way out the door. trump has been their political awakening, not their swan song. they are going to be a force in american politics for a long time. they won't be able to elect presidents as long as they stay white supremacists, but they will continue to barf all over the legislative branch and also mass murder is one of the easier crimes to commit.