Rolling Brexit Links/UK politics in the neo-Weimar era

They came 2nd in about 40% of their constituencies (120!) last year - though as Matt says that's hopefully a high-water mark.

Yeah I thought the UKIP vote was huge in 2015 - about as many as the SNP & LDs combined - and the Brexit success only adds to the sense of critical mass, and the prospect of clear results and change will be tempting while the rest of the political landscape remains fractured and confused

how do you confront it electorally tho? more talk about people's legitimate concerns? a new cuddly "right-wing-economics-with-a-welcoming-pat-on-the-head-for-immigrants" coalition/party?

most of the counter proposals are basically "we must cling harder to the status quo" which y'know, maybe, arguably, maybe, possibly, led us to this mess in the first place

"the Brexit success only adds to the sense of critical mass"

momentum*-in-the-narrative is an argument that media makes re increased coverage, not an argument voters ever actually make -- in reality, the success in turning brexit into the default position of both the major parties undermines ukip's vote-share, unless (as matt notes) it can refashion itself into a purely xenophobic party

meanwhile in the world of actual real economics and labour patterns: "UK farmers warn of Brexit-triggered labour crisis":
https://www.ft.com/content/7ceb876c-b58d-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d

*not that momentum

what arguments do voters make? people don't like to feel they've thrown their vote away so the fact that UKIP got so many votes as parliamentary outsiders is pretty astonishing. the successes aren't decisive or established enough to appease people yet (especially given that there was no one clear thing people were even voting for). I'll believe the disquiet is on the verge of dissipating & standard two party politics is to be resumed when the headlines change

i guess "adds to the sense of critical mass" may translate into something like "a rush and a push and the land is ours"

i agree that (for some), the increased uncertainty post-vote is very likely encouraging a feeling of "just one more rush & push and no more bengalis in platforms [insert disliked aspect of modern life]"

but -- within that same voting collective -- every step towards local shutdown (nissan in sunderland, fruit rotting in the fields of the garden of england [see link above], stresses on tourism in conrwall and wales) is pulling the collective in several directions

i don't think we're ever going to return to standard two-party politics, or (in the medium term) a sense of easy-reach calm

But even supposing the Labour Party decided to pander to the anti-immigration crowd, they can't out pander them. They will always offer more restrictions than the LP do - if the LP promise to cut immigration the right will promise to eliminate it it. If the LP promises to eliminate immigration they will promise to eradicate the asylum system etc. 'What is morally unconscionable is always electorally unfeasible' or something like that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/news/kate-bush-theresa-may-wonderful-best-thing-happened-us-long/

who'd have guessed that a wealthy rock star would be a Tory?

I'm choosing to believe that she isn't and that she's just trotting out that moronic victory-for-feminism line.

Doesn't seem that likely, bearing in mind she was an adult all throughout the Thatcher era.

doesn't really belong on the brexit thread

take it here: theresa may: is her project subtly machiavellian or merely cunning, baldrick-style?

LOL Kate Bush, she's not perfect after all, ILX.

Aw, that saddens me. Especially with a kid with special needs - it would be terrible to leave such cases to the private sector.

*shrug* I still love Ezra Pound's poetry, I think I can get thru this

She's from Bexleyheath, even the urban foxes are tory round there

2015 was a tough year for this A Lloyd Webber fan, never want to go through that kind of internal conflict again :p

im shocked that a middle-class english musician who makes progressive rock could be a conservative.

have your barf bags at the ready:

https://twitter.com/ProgressOnline/status/803684565621600256

Now I don't normally advocate shooting people in the face but

First comment is mint tho

Hah, that's a friend of mine (er, unless twitter is being tricky - Brevor Tastard?)

Haha I was just coming to post that Progress tweet. Special circle of Hell just for those cunts.

Reading that tweet on my desktop computer and seeing down the side bar the little info bit for Progress's twitter account and just thinking to myself "what in the name of fuck is wrong with you bastarts?":

Progress, Labour's new mainstream, is an organisation of Labour party members which aims to promote a radical&progressive politics

John McTernan otm, somehow

https://twitter.com/johnmcternan/status/803711188257247232

quite a few of the hardcore progress/blarite types seem uncomfortable with the anti-immigration/blue labour rhetoric, the other day I saw Spencer Livermore of all people, praising Diane Abbott for an article defending free movement. Abbott really is doing god's work by standing firm on this issue against the vast majority of the PLP (and quite a few of the people on team Corbyn afaict?)

The word progressive is completely fucking meaningless at this stage, although I could imagine that tweet coming from Eric Clapton.

Its like someone looked at the UKIP leadership results and the guff spouted about how UKIP could fuck Labour and believed every word of it, then had a full day and drafted the tweet about 15 times before posting it.

and had zero idea of what "assimilation" has historically meant in this discussion

it turns out that Kinnock had lots of bad opinions at this event:

ProgressOnline ‏@ProgressOnline
.@SKinnock 2008 changed everything ... Labour must take responsbility for the drift that lead to the rise in authoritarianism.

ProgressOnline ‏@ProgressOnline
.@SKinnock Nobody on the doorstep listens to me when I say, 'think about the economic benefits of immigration'

ProgressOnline ‏@ProgressOnline
.@SKinnock Labour has to reassure the British people that we understand and respect their desire for control over immigration.

ProgressOnline ‏@ProgressOnline
.@SKinnock We must recalibrate our approach on immigration and talk, as patriots, about what unites us, not what divides us.

hard to believe that a privileged white middle class kid grew up with shitty political opinions

The Telegraph recently described him as "the red prince" in an article about him allegedly trying to conceal the tuition fees of the private school his daughters attend. I don't why he bothers, it isn't like he has a reputation to protect and is plainly another waste of a private education like Smith was. But "the red prince" lol wtf

I mean actual poshos like Clement Atlee and Tony Benn have made decent socialists but that's because they actually bothered to interrogate their background and their position in life. Nothing I've seen of Kinnock Jr suggests that he's in the Labour Party for any other reason than accident of birth and I don't believe he's done the slightest self-reflection for all the pretence of doing so.

The only way the Labour Party is going to offset the rise of right-wing authoritarianism is by offering something that is indisputably more attractive and there isn't any sign that they know how to do so.

At this stage I'm fully expecting to see some Labour pamphlet outlining The Progressive Case For Eugenics.

Idly googling whether anyone has put out the case against the modern identity politics, and it turns out the MP for Aberavon has in fact had some views last week on how it's a distraction because everybody is suffering under the Tories.

Please stop being otm Matt as it's quite depressing.

Kinnock was in conversation with Margaret Hodge last week at the LSE on the subject of "the new minority: white working class politics in an era of immigration and inequality". I was tempted to see if my old university pass still worked so i could go in and set off the sprinkler system.

It would be interesting to know whether his views have been influenced by, or overlap with, those of his wife's government but idk if anyone has the insight into domestic Danish politics we would need on that point.

wait so there's an actual real assimilation/borg/borgen joke waiting to be made here?

Big lols will accrue to whoever can land that one right.

Sorry but I just watched Carl Dreyer's "Ordet" last night, so the name Borgen does not signify big lols to me.

At this stage I'm fully expecting to see some Labour pamphlet outlining The Progressive Case For Eugenics.

For some reason I can't shake an image forming in my head of a sort of alt-right nazi version of Dave Angel-Eco Warrior. "We all like a good time, but here's one thing that aint no laughing matter- white genocide. I bet you've never thought about these liddle things called haplogroups..."

I'd be interested to know how Kinnock conceives a specifically white working class culture in terms beyond "distrust or hatred of non-white people"

nah, let me second guess him - it's about concerns re: community spirit, job insecurity, access to healthcare and education. and what Kinnock would like to do is not to tell people that the excesses of market capitalism and 35 years of UK governments rolling back the welfare state are not the main causes of those problems, but immigration is. either because he believes that, or because he believes in market capitalism and rolling back the welfare state and thinks immigration is an easier lie to sell to a gullible electorate.

(b)

hey, he's either a moron or evil, I'm comfortable either way

http://www.relatably.com/m/img/why-not-both-meme/66938800.jpg

“I think we need to make it very clear that the difference between ourselves and Ukip is that Ukip and the hard right of the Tories are nationalists and isolationists,” he said.

Whenever you're ready to start making that clear Kinnock please knock yourself out.

kinnock def putting clear water between labour and ukip/tories with statements like 'we must recalibrate our approach on immigration and talk, as patriots, about what unites us, not what divides us', good job buddy

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/30/zac-goldsmith-hit-by-his-own-car-on-his-way-to-hustings-6292357/
zac^^^ trawling for the brian harvey vote here

Sorry but I just watched Carl Dreyer's "Ordet" last night, so the name Borgen does not signify big lols to me.

Ordet is great! That is all.