Rolling Brexit Links/UK politics in the neo-Weimar era

"political debate" comprises a kremlinology of manners: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/11/theresa-may-trousers-row-angry-text-exchange-nicky-morgan

upon such court gossip turn our fortunes

Ther-ouser May

I could care less how much TM spends on a pair of trousers but OMG brown leather with black everything else? *writes penalty notice on behalf of Fashion Police*

I can't really imagine any clothes those incredibly ugly trousers would pair well with

i'm going to weather the torrent of hate here and posit that all types of leather trousers are unacceptable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbZVlKKd7I8

AGREED

1983: "maggie maggie maggie! out out out!"
2017: "may may may! it's turned into a paste!"

http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2016/12/11/the-turn-to-neo-edwardian-politics/

this is good

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/dec/12/uk-halve-international-student-visa-tougher-rules

I have banged on about this enough for several lifetimes but the two tier system seems to inevitably point to a fair few British universities going out of business over the next couple of years and half the British students in the country having their institutions branded unfit for genuine international students - or at least, not places the 'best and brightest' would ever want to set foot.

what good are universities though? how do they enrich our society, and why would we need all the revenue they bring into the country?

I mean obviously I don't believe the above, I can't even conceive of any reason other than self-defeating racism and xenophobia that would support it.

I can't think of anything more miserably 2016 than the government choosing to eviscerate our higher education sector in order to further mollify racists, none of whom will be remotely satisfied anyway.

Jesus Christ why are they so horrible??

as difficult as it may be to have some racist xenophobes understand and accept the ways in which their points of view are actually self-defeating

it seems equally difficult to have some e.g. new labour types understand and accept the ways in which they seek to further mollify racists will never remotely satisfied them

where do we start?

a bit hesitant to go here for various reasons but the third-rail word for mollifcation is appeasement

the problem is racists/xenophobes don't want to be challenged on their racism/xenophobia, they want it to be flattered

and politicos therefore think they can win these people's votes by flattering them rather than challenging them

I often wonder what kind of world we'd be living in if Gordon Brown had had the courage to say, "Actually, yes, Gillian Duffy is a racist, and we're all a bit racist, and we need to work to overcome our prejudices for the sake of the country"

This is a not-terrible piece of writing, I think. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/12/devolve-issue-of-immigration-communities

"PM: Gillian Duffy IS a racist" ('is' in red) would have been the front page of every tabloid, with a 4-page rebuttal by her in the Sun.

when you've incrementally accommodated what are now referred to as "legitimate concerns" to the point that it can be suggested that to even question the legitimacy of these "concerns" is something offensive comparable to the offensiveness of the very thinly-veiled violence that "legitimate concerns" often imply

I dunno what else you call it

xposts

"PM: Gillian Duffy IS a racist" ('is' in red) would have been the front page of every tabloid, with a 4-page rebuttal by her in the Sun.

I know, and Brown would've lost the 2010 election. So glad he equivocated instead and Cameron didn't get in. Oh hang on.

I mean at some point we'll have to grasp the nettle that the only way past this is to incur the wrath of the tabloids. Cowardice in the face of racism and xenophobia will only end in self-defeat.

I don't know how we make it work but "Oh hello racist person, you are not a racist, please vote for me" doesn't really seem to be leading us in a good direction either does it?

Oh I'm not saying he shouldn't have, I'm just suggesting this is almost certainly the picture in his head which caused his recantation - whether growing naturally or placed there by advisors, none of us know.

gillian duffy wouldn't have been a good hill to die on because I don't think she said anything substantial enough for someone to challenge her on it. we don't know enough about her beliefs to say anything useful about them

what good are universities though? how do they enrich our society, and why would we need all the revenue they bring into the country?

I mean obviously I don't believe the above, I can't even conceive of any reason other than self-defeating racism and xenophobia that would support it.

― Herpes Bizarre (stevie), Monday, December 12, 2016 10:43 AM (fifty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I can't think of anything more miserably 2016 than the government choosing to eviscerate our higher education sector in order to further mollify racists, none of whom will be remotely satisfied anyway.

― Matt DC, Monday, December 12, 2016 10:46 AM (forty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Amputating large parts of the university sector is a policy goal in itself, quite apart from any consideration of immigration numbers. The recent HE bill contains provisions for what is euphemistically termed 'market exit'.

But why? Why exit a market we were actually quite successful at?

That's fair, Ogmor. But saying that foreigners are to blame for a problem they aren't to blame for is a fallacy worth interrogating, I think, if we're to get out of this blind alley.

Like, the only way this country becomes less of a shithole probably involves hurting a few racists' feelings?

I think there are arguments that there are too many HE places available and that the quality of degrees is too variable, but I don't suppose these are the arguments that really interest this government, any more than they interested Blair's

Or, you know, the people clamouring that "immigrants" don't get study visas.

literally never heard anybody fretting over foreign students other than May and her pals

labour have been too quiet on the actual causes behind stretched local services, inadequate housing etc. so it's difficult for them to point to them when immigration is mentioned

I'm wary of the impulse to take race out of the immigration debate to make things neater, but I do think you can dismiss all the main arguments about the damaging effects of immigration purely with numbers and history and it's maddening that no one ever seems to even try

That's less taking it out and more leaving it the only thing in, though.

there does seem to have been a post-brexit referendum shift where Labour MPs like Stephen Kinnock and Jonathan Reynolds are now openly saying that even if you can disprove that immigration has a negative impact on wages and public services etc with stats, that the party should still commit to reduce immigration because of "cultural cohesion".

when people suggest to these anti-free movement Labour MPs that they make a positive case for immigration with statistics it seems like they normally don't dispute the evidence but insist that when they speak to people on the doorstep they've learned that quoting statistics at people makes no difference on this issue, which just seems like this dead-end political nihilism

government flagship free childcare policy mandates 30 free hours but funding amounts to less than minimum wage meaning that child care facilities are obliged to make a loss and the government is essentially paying less than minimum wage? apparently only two labour mps were in the commons when an amendment was laid in october neither chose to trigger a debate?

You need them but stats alone won't convince those who've 'had enough of experts'.

We need more apprenticeships! No! Not like that! Ones that pay better than regular jobs! Mostly I just want trades to be considered to be as important as fancy degrees!

(Which the right can never deliver)

re: Duffy - of course Brown could've knocked up a speech a day or so later after incident, made the argument as to why Duffy was wrong (iirc she was a public sector worker with a pension and owned her own home), something nuanced delivered powerfully but it couldn't because of the calibre of politician on *all sides* is so poor (Obama is the technocrat that would've pulled this off). That and the disconnect between Labour and the people you'd think they'd be closer to was something so broken - that incident provided an ample demonstration of what was evident (and from what soref is saying Brexit has accelerated the divide whereby you have idiots like Kinnock trotting along with a bare cupboard of ideas on how to connect and gain trust back). They pander to racists on one side, haven't done a thing anyway to alleviate the suffering in many deprived areas, and are then wined and dined by whoever at the other end.

A lot of things can be said about people that voted Brexit - they were racists, ill-informed. Many simply rolled the dice and didn't care for *expert* advice, and actually there is something to be said for that.

What?

There are a lot of 'Oh, fuck it' voters and I've met people in couples where one spouse voted in and the other voted out so they'd cancel out.

the hokey-cokey approach to a successful relationship

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/13/brexit-leave-voters-theresa-may-promise

i imagine the answer to that will be a fairly straightforward "immigrants and POC". maybe some left over for the LGBT community too.

Many simply rolled the dice and didn't care for *expert* advice, and actually there is something to be said for that.

what is to be said for this?

A lot of experts are definitely not on the side of the oppressed or the poor

And the people behind Brexit are?

recognition that a lot of expert bodies and institutions of authority have been - still are! - built on systemic prejudices, I imagine

xp

And the people behind Brexit are?

― Herpes Bizarre (stevie), Tuesday, December 13, 2016 5:12 PM (four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

brexit (and abandonment of expertise entirely) might have been the wrong answer, but that doesn't mean the question or the suspicion was unfounded

yep