Rolling Brexit Links/UK politics in the neo-Weimar era

I guess the thing is we needed a Labour party with a leader strong enough to have made a convincing argument against Brexit before the vote, and with the courage of its convictions to stick with that argument after the vote. Corbin has never been that leader. The Labour party has never been that party. They have failed as an opposition to the biggest threat in recent years.

I mean if the Labour Party cannot convincingly argue against what will be a catastrophic decision that will greatly (further) impoverish its heartlands voters as well as the rest of the country, then what use is it as an opposition?

It isn't. It's either incompetent or tory-lite. No point in it.

A leader with the prevalent criticisms Corbyn had from the start (both within and outside his party) was never going to wield that sort of power.

He's not a leader. That's the crux of it.

And it's not the criticisms he's had. He's not a leader. He is not looking to lead. He is not up to the job.

If a better one can be found I'm sure they will emerge...eventually. But how they'd then contest a GE in 2020 with the promise of actually reversing four years of a process set to take 10+ I'd love to feel surer about.

Tim Farron seems to be the only leader right now with a decent, sane argument out there right now. And yeah, he has nothing to lose blah blah, the Lib Dems are awful, blah blah. But when the other two leaders are playing chicken with almost inevitable financial collapse (not to mention, you know, the end of the European project, the rise of fascism, the spectre of war, etc etc, stuff you might have expected Corbyn to at least thing not a good idea) he seems like the only sane adult at the table.

David Lammy has argued well throughout. He's my MP, he seems a good politician.

as much as we love to handwring about Labour, I'm not sure anything anyone in the party would have said in the run-up to Brexit would have been decisive. The party has been languishing in the polls for years, the last election was a disaster and the polls consistently show that they're not trusted on the economy even when the Tories are driving it off a cliff edge. Corbyn was never going to be a deciding factor in Brexit, especially with the media's attitude to him, and neither was any other putative Labour leader.

Oh look in the time it's taken me to type this Dan Jarvis has popped up blathering about Legitimate Concerns, doesn't he know that phrase is a joke now

Farron has also said he would be prepared to go into coalition with the Tories again, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. Brexit will be largely settled by 2020 but I suspect he'd throw his European principles out of the window in a flash for a shot at sitting on the other side of the house again.

as much as we love to handwring about Labour, I'm not sure anything anyone in the party would have said in the run-up to Brexit would have been decisive. The party has been languishing in the polls for years, the last election was a disaster and the polls consistently show that they're not trusted on the economy even when the Tories are driving it off a cliff edge. Corbyn was never going to be a deciding factor in Brexit, especially with the media's attitude to him, and neither was any other putative Labour leader.

But he didn't really try, Alex, at least not in a competent or convincing way. I can't believe that someone who could have cooked up a strong argument against Brexit wouldn't have had more impact than Corbyn did. Brett won by such a slim margin, it could have swung things.

I mean, the party is languishing in the polls in part because it doesn't have a leader who can inspire support (and Corbyn is decisively not that leader - he's incompetent, or worse). A certain amount of Labour voters voted Brexit because the party and leadership did not argue well enough that it was in their best interests to Remain. These things don't just happen.

very few of the vocal Remainers were really "convincing". I didn't hear any passionate pro-EU polemics from anyone. Which was a huge flaw in the Remain campaign overall but not specific to Corbyn and not an explanation of why he seems to bear the brunt of centrists' fury or is blamed any more than Cameron for the referendum result

A certain amount of Labour voters voted Brexit because the party and leadership did not argue well enough that it was in their best interests to Remain

Labour has been, and mostly continues to be, absolutely terrible at countering the myths - especially on immigration - that made voters want to Leave. Corbyn has been one of the few exceptions until last week.

How about the myth that Labour supporters in droves voted Brexit?

I'd literally crawl through a corridor of vomit and needles to get away from voting for Farron or any LibDem scum candidate ever. Regardless of whatever current grasping desperation they are employing on disgruntled Remainers.

you don't like corbyn do you Dysphagia Nutrition Solutions

I did, two years ago, but his performance has dismayed me and led us to this impasse, so no. Is that not allowed on this thread, conrad?

why he seems to bear the brunt of centrists' fury or is blamed any more than Cameron for the referendum result

Cameron quit as PM after losing Brexit, which is I guess why people's fury is now trained on the man who still has the job of leading the opposition.

Really not sure why people itt have the idea that UK could ever stay in the single market after leaving the EU. What is this fantasy based on? Why would the EU agree to it?

reminder that however underwhelming Corbyn is, it could always be worse:
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/82513/excl-dan-jarvis-labour-must-get-tough-immigration

not trying to police you Dysphagia Nutrition Solutions you are of course free to like and to dislike whomever on this thread and on other threads e.g. at the moment you like tim farron on this thread

nothing personal - I have met a few people who don't like corbyn because they don't like corbyn and they seem to concentrate on not liking corbyn and it becomes kind of a frenzy and perhaps every one of them is acting out their genuine frustration and sadness and desire for a better politics and a better world but all they end up saying is I don't like corbyn

xp
and see every other dire candidate the PLP put forward, and even flaky types from the left like Clive Lewis.

thank you for not policing me then conrad. you are a good socialist.

and you know i "like" tim farrow inasmuch as he is voicing some kind of opposition to Brexit, which is what I would have liked Labour to do.

me, I'm a moderate

Can you seriously imagine how badly Liz Kendall or Andy Burnham or Owen Smith would have been at negotiating the last few months? Corbyn is useless but he's only in the position he is because there's no one good out there.

Honestly I think Labour would be fucked whatever in the current climate, but having said I would have expected Corbyn to at least show more moral leadership than he has of late, especially on free movement, and if he can't do that then what is the point of him?

I'm starting to dislike Corbyn. It feels like history's trapdoor is open and we have a well-meaning dullard waving us through rather than inspiring a counterforce. But as Matt says, who could?

I just can't quite believe that Corbyn is the best there is, though again, beyond Lammy, I've not seen anyone who's impressed me.

Oh wait, Caroline Lucas

Diane Abbott

I like Abbott a lot.

I mean I've read countless leftists castigating Hilary Clinton for running despite supposedly knowing she wasn't the best candidate to beat an outright fascist, but that logic is never really applied to Corbyn with the far right escalating over here. If Labour lose Stoke to UKIP that may become more acute though.

I think they will hold more seats than people expect them to in 2020, but making virtually no gains. It's what happens after that that matters, and whether Corbyn can at least lay some positive ground-work in some way before then.

Abbott is a figure of absolute loathing amongst the white working class. She'd be even more unpopular than Corbyn. But maybe if she owned it and spoke dynamically she'd win around some of the racist misogynists?

What is the point of 'some kind of opposition to Brexit' if not an all out pledge to abandon it if elected?

abbott is definitely despised by the white working and middle and upper class

I'm aware Abbott is loathed by many and also why. Fuck em.

and you know i "like" tim farrow inasmuch as he is voicing some kind of opposition to Brexit, which is what I would have liked Labour to do.

btw by this do you mean you want any Labout leader to be explicitly anti-Brexit? ie, explicitly ignoring the referendum result? Because much as I'd like that to happen I can't see a way to do it politically.

david lammy mp is the labour mp saying let's ignore it isn't he?

I don't see how obeying the referendum result isn't a disaster for Labour, and I would have more respect for a party that was honest about what a disaster Brexit will inevitably be - it would put clear water between them and the Tories.

Labour could stand on the premise of forcing another referendum for a chance to reject may's brexit deal.
They could quite easily form a pro-brexit coalition with lib-dems,snp,PC, Greens

Lammy wants another referendum and then maybe another one. Let's get one on Trident too and a dozen other things too.

I'm sympathetic to that argument but I assume electability isn't something you're concerned with in that case?

xps

Lammy's always struck me as being somewhat of a dimwit tbh.

I don't like Diane Abbott either, just to lay my cards on the table.

I like Abbott, voted for her in 2010, wld vote her again now if given the chance. she's definitely much better on TV than Corbyn, I think she would do better than him in appealing to "apolitical" people/ ppl who are not dyed-in-the-wool beardy guardian reading lefties (which is most ppl, obv) even taking into account her status as a hate figure for racists and misogynists, chances of her becoming leader probably zero though, she seems even less popular in the PLP than Corbyn

We're gonna need a bigger table.

Lammy went on to become the first black Briton to study at Harvard University when he won a place to study an LL.M. at Harvard Law School.

only 52% of voters voted for leave. They weren't voting for hard brexit. Hard brexit and leaving the single market was not what was asked.

So why shouldnt pro-euro parties join up?

I have to say im no fan of abbott either

tho i do end up defending her all the time against racists who claim they arent

They would be asking people to vote for them on the basis of ignoring a democratic vote, it's a bit Catch-22