http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/65/6553/UNT4100Z/posters/the-x-files-i-want-to-believe-print.jpg
― Treeship, Saturday, 25 March 2017 21:55 (seven years ago) link
I'm definitely sympathetic to the idea of wanting it to be true but the whole business of signal boosting hucksters like Adam Khan, HuffPo randos and a woman who thinks Putin arranged the Westminster terrorist attack should embarrass all concerned.
― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:00 (seven years ago) link
SV otm,
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:05 (seven years ago) link
Also, what should be incredibly obvious, but the main reason leftists like Greenwald are trying to downplay everything is because they played a key role all along. With the DNC leaks meant to harm with the Sanders wing, and the first Podesta emails including snippets of Goldman Sachs speeches, this was always obviously the Russians trying to create harm with the left, and would never have been so harmful if they hadn't taken the bait 100%.
Is this supposed to be the extent of Russian 'interference' in the US election?
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:12 (seven years ago) link
Is there much evidence that these leaks led to a major loss of support for HRC from people who were planning to vote for her otherwise?
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:28 (seven years ago) link
i have it on good authority that after just a few hundred more tweets about trump and russia, bernie will finally be president
― sleepingbag, Saturday, March 25, 2017 5:17 PM (fifty-four minutes ago)
this is a pretty pathetic post
― k3vin k., Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:30 (seven years ago) link
trump owes shitloads to the russians. he scratches their backs, they continue scratching his by helping take down hillz. he's such a corrupt dunning-kruger silver spoon he doesn't realize he and his hangers on committed treason
― reggie (qualmsley), Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:34 (seven years ago) link
good read https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/why-putin-hates-clinton-and-helped-trump-win
― flopson, Saturday, 25 March 2017 22:41 (seven years ago) link
thanks
I think it's going to be difficult to show active collusion [between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin] because people who study this say that the Russian government often works with groups that they have very arms-length relations with. It's unlikely these groups have an easily verifiable link either to the Kremlin or to the Trump team. It could also be that they really wanted to see Trump in office, so they did these things without active collusion.
otm, Russian intelligence isn't dumb enough to have actual FSB fingerprints on stuff; but the Trump camp folks are so dense who knows, I mean the Roger Stone -> Guccifer 2.0 twitter DM thing was pretty 0_o
― Not the real Tombot (El Tomboto), Saturday, 25 March 2017 23:48 (seven years ago) link
it's nothing like Frederik's deranged fantasies
― Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 25 March 2017 23:53 (seven years ago) link
http://occupydemocrats.com/2017/03/23/man-testified-trumps-campaign-chair-just-shot-dead/
Manchurian candidate LARP is a charitable way to put it!
― the late great, Saturday, 25 March 2017 23:53 (seven years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― System, Sunday, 26 March 2017 00:01 (seven years ago) link
trump's dramatic arc calls for an ignominious fall. if russia doesn't do it some other criminal activity will have to be unearthed. it doesn't make aesthetic sense for him to just continue to lose popularity and sort of fade away after four years.
― blame society (Treeship), Sunday, 26 March 2017 00:36 (seven years ago) link
The thing is that this is real life and not a movie. Actual results will either be wholly unsatisfactory or so batshit insane that no one will believe it's actually real.
― Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Sunday, 26 March 2017 03:03 (seven years ago) link
batshit insanity seems to cling to trump like a bad aroma
― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Sunday, 26 March 2017 03:04 (seven years ago) link
Like, the most likely scenarios I see panning out here are "Trump is an incurious moron who surrounded himself with compromised ninnies because they flattered home the most" or "Trump and Putin are secretly lovers planning to conquer the entire world through military action and trade shenanigans"
― Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Sunday, 26 March 2017 03:05 (seven years ago) link
imo, the explanation could be: trump is addicted to the idea of making deals that make him money. this is central to his self-image. business deals are only about one thing: making or losing money. Russia offered him deals that make him money. there is no connection in his mind between his running for president, his deals with russia, his making money, and his committing treason or felonies. they are wholly compartmentalized in different parts of his brain. and then there was the money, too.
― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Sunday, 26 March 2017 03:19 (seven years ago) link
Dan's first scenario is almost exactly what I've been assuming for some time. Dan's second scenario is the plot of a series of self-published erotic novels I have coming out later this year.
― Ambling Shambling Man (Old Lunch), Sunday, 26 March 2017 04:05 (seven years ago) link
kinda just wish the fucker would choke on a ham sandwich (DJT, not DJP)
― Neanderthal, Sunday, 26 March 2017 04:32 (seven years ago) link
because even if there is an actual fire in this case, idk how much more of this ugly shit this country can take at this point....which isn't to say I don't think it should be pursued, but just that it's all so fatiguing
― Neanderthal, Sunday, 26 March 2017 04:35 (seven years ago) link
I think it's something, just not the Manchurain Candidate LARP people want it to be.
otm
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Sunday, 26 March 2017 05:04 (seven years ago) link
more to the point, not nothing, but also not something worth wasting precious effort on
― a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Sunday, 26 March 2017 05:08 (seven years ago) link
I think the difficulty with this, and a lot of similar theories - like him 'owing money to Russia', is what we mean by 'Russia'. Is the Russian government offering him deals? Is he doing favours for non-government investors?
I think Trump is probably sceptical of sanctions and part of that scepticism could be motivated by self-interest, along with a broader idea that they are bad for business, but that scepticism seems to have been overridden by political reality and would fall a long way short of malfeasance on its own.
The wider trend of lumping everyone from Russians to Ukrainians, Azeris, Armenians, Russian-Armericans, Jewish Lithuanians who emigrated from the Soviet Union to the US aged seven, people who have business interests in Russia, people married to Russians, etc, as a suspicious monolith called 'Russia' is where it gets deep into what critics like Marsha Gessen are describing as a xenophobic conspiracy.
― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Sunday, 26 March 2017 07:42 (seven years ago) link
'putin's sphere of influence'
― j., Sunday, 26 March 2017 15:11 (seven years ago) link
the saddest insult to everyday americans in a loooooong looooooooooongg time is trump and his buddies were convinced they could get away with it :/
― reggie (qualmsley), Sunday, 26 March 2017 16:36 (seven years ago) link
I suspect the gist of it is that Trump surrounded himself with cranks and shady business people who couldn't get a seat at the table with more mainstream Republicans. Some of them, like Flynn, are more than usually sympathetic to Russia - probably in Flynn's case because he was paid and taken seriously as a critic of the Obama government when nobody else was interested in him. Some, like Manafort and Cohen, don't have any particular political axe to grind but have found the region a useful place to make shady money.
I do t think there will be evidence of a quid-pro-quo. Partly because, if Russia did provide the emails to Wikileaks, there was enough animus there towards Clinton to have done it anyway, partly because there doesn't seem to be any change of direction in the relationship with Russia. The sanctions have been reconfirmed, the inviolability of Ukrainian sovereignty loudly proclaimed and plans for a vast US military build-up announced. I can't see any of that changing unless Europe moves first on normalising Crimea.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 26 March 2017 17:12 (seven years ago) link
lol @ "something"
Russia is going to be Trump's Benghazi
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 26 March 2017 20:22 (seven years ago) link
maybe in terms of fallout but probably not in terms of what, like, actually happened
― Neanderthal, Sunday, 26 March 2017 20:54 (seven years ago) link
yeah there seems way way way more here than there was with Benghazi, and I'm not just saying that because I hate Donald Trump
― frogbs, Monday, 27 March 2017 13:14 (seven years ago) link
his campaign advisor through the republican national convention had a $10,000,000 a year contract to advance russia's interests, from 2006 till Grover Norquist knows when. imagine the shoe on the other foot. moscowghazi hearings till the cows come home
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 27 March 2017 13:22 (seven years ago) link
the GOP called Obama "King Obama" for far lesser trangressions than Donald
― Neanderthal, Monday, 27 March 2017 13:26 (seven years ago) link
they seem to be saying, people who believe above all in tax cuts for the rich are also epic hypocrites. it's not a good look, not that fox/koch nation gives a shit
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 27 March 2017 13:29 (seven years ago) link
Posted this on the main thread but worth a note:
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/27/us/politics/senate-jared-kushner-russia.html?referer
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 27 March 2017 13:31 (seven years ago) link
also didn't Roger Stone, who most biographies describe as Trump's closest advisor, straight up admit he was in contact with Russian hackers? isn't it weird how Stone, Guiliani, and every member of the Trump family (besides Tiffany, probably) knew exactly when the Wikileaks stuff was gonna start dropping?
― frogbs, Monday, 27 March 2017 13:45 (seven years ago) link
it's only weird if you hate business and jesus and the constitution and success
― reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 27 March 2017 14:01 (seven years ago) link
yeah there seems way way way more here than there was with Benghazi
100 times zero is still zero
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 27 March 2017 22:13 (seven years ago) link
yes, but strangely, 100 plus zero is still 100
― Balðy Daudrs (contenderizer), Monday, 27 March 2017 22:41 (seven years ago) link
Some of the people around him might have been compromised and pushed him toward cerain policy positions without his awareness. This could have included direct bribes -- like a slice of Rosneft -- because the thing about deals like that is that they simultaneously work as blackmail. I think that's the most likely scenario -- We already know Flynn took money from Turkey during the campaign.
― Treeship, Monday, 27 March 2017 22:49 (seven years ago) link
Granted the last thing we need is another Tweetstorm and the 'we KNOW' bit throughout here is tendentious, but I like this as a summary:
https://twitter.com/ColinKahl/status/846466154617077760
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 27 March 2017 22:50 (seven years ago) link
Schiff has formally asked for Nunes's recusal
https://twitter.com/RepAdamSchiff/status/846493210960637952
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 27 March 2017 22:51 (seven years ago) link
For some reason I don't think Trump himself would agree to a quid pro quo and put himself in such a compromised position.
― Treeship, Monday, 27 March 2017 22:51 (seven years ago) link
but when you're a celebrity they let you do that
― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Monday, 27 March 2017 23:00 (seven years ago) link
this one's going to be harder to get than Sessions' recusal, right? That one only came about due to some conservative voices suggesting he do it, whereas Ryan already came out in support of Nunes.
― Neanderthal, Monday, 27 March 2017 23:06 (seven years ago) link
Ryan, so loved by conservatives right about now, yes.
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 27 March 2017 23:07 (seven years ago) link
Anyway, harder to get, but reaction to Nunes is turning towards the 'uh, dude, you can shut up now,' I've noticed.
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 27 March 2017 23:08 (seven years ago) link
it really does prove that Ryan is going to be a piece of shit until they finally flush him out. not that I had any doubts on that.
the things that raise my blood pressure the most are:
a) that Nunes is doing this all out in the open, with the weakest of alibis for every move he makes andb) as usual, the Republicans demand an orgy of evidence enough to convict a criminal twice over before they'll let you investigate one of theirs, but something as miniscule as Nunes's vague statement (which as of yet has alleged nothing illegal occurred) or Trump's baseless claim = INVESTIGATE NOW.
"b" is why they've managed to be resilient for so many years, because they've kind of become the scum that even the most corrupt of the Dems refuse to become, so they win because they scream the loudest.
― Neanderthal, Monday, 27 March 2017 23:11 (seven years ago) link
I know he's slowly turning into persona non grata, but the Dems don't exactly have any way of enforcing this recusal without at least some pressure from the GOP, and I'm thinking it needs to come from outside of the typical Graham/McCain bloc.
of course, he may already be planning to recuse himself, thinking he already did what he set out to do (which was....give the White House cover in the poorest way imaginable?)
― Neanderthal, Monday, 27 March 2017 23:14 (seven years ago) link
I'm so tired of this nonsensical straw man people keep pushing around as if they're the only people who ever watched any gangster movie, or a season of the Wire or the Sopranos
Nobody expects there to be some kind of email thread where Trump and Putin agree to sell the country down the river, jesus fuck
― Not the real Tombot (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 28 March 2017 00:16 (seven years ago) link
"I dunno, I think there might be something to the Russia thing, you know? But I doubt there's going to be a direct connection to Trump himself."
THANK YOU WISEST SAGE
― Not the real Tombot (El Tomboto), Tuesday, 28 March 2017 00:17 (seven years ago) link
there was this thing called the trump dossier that was published a few months ago, got some coverage
― Treeship, Tuesday, 28 March 2017 00:24 (seven years ago) link
it's not kamala vs. trump, it's sane government that is responsive to the needs of the public vs. a lunatic authoritarian who, last time he was in charge, drove the nation into chaos.
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:33 (two years ago) link
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-russia-kremlin-vladislav-surkov-grey-cardinal-moscow-a8773661.html
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:39 (two years ago) link
sorry thought this was the other thread. anyway, that link is about the propaganda strategy of the kremlin under putin, which is based in maximizing incoherence and confusion. i think it's possible this is a fake leak designed to get "russiagate" back in the news and sow more chaos in america.
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:40 (two years ago) link
especially the fact that the "kompromat" thing is coming up again. like, enough is enough. five years of this.
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:41 (two years ago) link
Harris isn’t going to be President this decade unless Biden dies. The track record for VPs immediately becoming President in modern history is… HW Bush.
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:45 (two years ago) link
i was just naming anyone, and she's next in line and will probably try for it at some point. i'm just saying, whoever it is will be satan to 40% of the country, divisiveness is baked into our country now
― Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:47 (two years ago) link
treeship, I'm not talking about winning the votes. my point was that Russia wants to sow as much division and discontent in the US as possible, given our inherently racist society I'm guessing they want Kamala to run so they can use that to continue pushing that division with the tools they've honed over the last two elections. it wasn't intended as a referendum on who will vote for whom.
― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:48 (two years ago) link
maybe russia wants to do that. i think we let russia live in our heads too much, rent-free. like, by their own admission, there isn't much rhyme or reason to their strategy beyond "sowing division" and "chaos."
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:52 (two years ago) link
meanwhile, the republican candidate will be an impulsive, mentally unstable and unbalanced individual who suffers from an inferiority complex. but when balanced against the tool of satan, what can you do? america divided
― KEEP HONKING -- I'M BOBOING (Boring, Maryland), Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:54 (two years ago) link
jesus. i was just responding to KM's question about wondering who russia would like to see run, but go off and lecture me some more treeship.
― a superficial sheeb of intelligence (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:55 (two years ago) link
― KEEP HONKING -- I'M BOBOING (Boring, Maryland), Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:55 (two years ago) link
Treeship - I see and second your suspicion about this leak; however, this is interesting.. from two days ago: The REvil Ransomware Hackers Have Gone Offline
If it was Russia that forced them offline for whatever reason, maybe they already had these docs and were just waiting for the moment to drop them?
― Andy the Grasshopper, Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:55 (two years ago) link
xp boring, MD
trump. i guess i'm making the assumption the republican candidate will be trump. if not him, i guess it would tucker carlson. white america loves a motherfucker
― Z_TBD (Karl Malone), Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:56 (two years ago) link
I don't think Pence has a chance
― rob, Thursday, 15 July 2021 17:59 (two years ago) link
xp i was confused about what you were talking about jon, apologies. i didn't know the conversation started with speculation about the kremlin.
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 18:05 (two years ago) link
the kremlin re. 2024
people who are so racist that they wouldn't vote for a black person, or so sexist that they wouldn't vote for a woman, are voting for the republican candidate anyway.
I don't believe this for a minute. There are more than enough 2020 Biden voters who are plenty racist or sexist enough to sit out voting for Harris in 2024 and swing the results - and as he likes to point out, Trump got more votes in 2020 than any Republican in history.
― BrianB, Thursday, 15 July 2021 18:11 (two years ago) link
i don't know. that could be offset by people who are inspired to vote for a woman, though -- she could get more women turnout. it's really hard to say how it will shake out.
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 18:20 (two years ago) link
i just think she doesn't need to become a lightning rod. no more than obama was anyway. he was a target of the right but still built a strong coalition of liberals and moderates.
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 18:21 (two years ago) link
if I were in charge of fucking up US electoral politics I would do everything I could to back Harris for sure, for a lot of reasons
― intern at pelican brief consulting (Simon H.), Thursday, 15 July 2021 18:33 (two years ago) link
re the guardian piece, something to keep in mind if you're unfamiliar the (very different) norms of UK journalism to keep in mind: when the article doesn't hedge, it might be wrong. when the article hedges, it's probably wrong.
This piece uses a version of the word “appear” seven times, “suggest” five times, and has one big “assessed to be.” pic.twitter.com/b7Su4NeYvK— Isaac Chotiner (@IChotiner) July 15, 2021
― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Thursday, 15 July 2021 18:36 (two years ago) link
that could be offset by people who are inspired to vote for a woman, though -- she could get more women turnout
I believe this, or rather want to believe this, while also hearing a voice on my other shoulder saying "yeah right, let's ask President Hillary Clinton about that."
― trial by wombat (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 15 July 2021 18:41 (two years ago) link
different situations with different baggage of course
yeah, i mean, these questions are hard to answer. but i will say that i remember 2008 and the fact that obama was a black man didn't seem to hurt him. in fact, it helped make him a transformative and inspiring figure for many voters, including me.
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 18:43 (two years ago) link
so, yeah, women candidates face unique challenges and in 2016 misogyny played a big role in the animus we saw toward hillary. but this same dynamic might not manifest itself in the same way again. new election, new situation, new opportunity.
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 18:44 (two years ago) link
For many reasons “first Black” President or Governor or X does not seem to map onto other demographics or identities.
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Thursday, 15 July 2021 18:59 (two years ago) link
i don't know. first woman president seems inspiring to me.
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 19:07 (two years ago) link
Yeah, excitement over the first woman President is probably better predicted by whether or not you have a college degree than whether you’re a man or woman or any other information about you.
― Joe Bombin (milo z), Thursday, 15 July 2021 19:09 (two years ago) link
that might be true. either way, it is hard to say how strong of a candidate harris will be if she runs in 2024. it depends on what the biden administration accomplishes.
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 19:24 (two years ago) link
i know i'll be inspired when nikki haley becomes president
― superdeep borehole (harbl), Thursday, 15 July 2021 19:24 (two years ago) link
Boebert/Greene ftw
― trial by wombat (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 15 July 2021 19:27 (two years ago) link
obviously it's no one's top criteria. i supported sanders in the primaries. i just think it's too simple to say she will be a lightning rod like hillary just because she is a woman and a POC.
― treeship., Thursday, 15 July 2021 19:28 (two years ago) link
xp boring, MDtrump. i guess i'm making the assumption the republican candidate will be trump. if not him, i guess it would tucker carlson. white america loves a motherfucker
― KEEP HONKING -- I'M BOBOING (Boring, Maryland), Thursday, 15 July 2021 22:12 (two years ago) link
They may even run an actual banana.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 15 July 2021 22:15 (two years ago) link
The only thing that would actually surprise me is if they nominated a competent and relatively sane human being. Anyone/thing outside of that is definitely on the table.
― Marty J. Bilge (Old Lunch), Thursday, 15 July 2021 22:21 (two years ago) link
my feeling about Harris is that, as someone who pays more attention to politics than is healthy, I have no sense of what her priorities are and what, if anything, she genuinely believes in. She also doesn't have an immediately recognizable persona in the way that Biden does. Makes me think Republicans would have a very easy time defining her on their terms and villainizing her.
the Russia thing feels a little too good to be true - my guess would be that Russia's involvement in the election is a bunch of scattered directives to underlings, a few minutes in meetings here and there as the primaries progress, etc, rather than some novelistic meeting in which the fiendish plan is devised.
― JoeStork, Friday, 16 July 2021 04:00 (two years ago) link