What is considered a "fat girl" these days? I really want to know.

As I said to Vic. Mark S - the follow up single, to balance the damage caused to his vegetable audience, could be, 'Angel of the Corning'. This would also alert his hardcore listeners to the 'ballad-nature' of the song, which might be disturbing to them.

Ronan - physical attraction is very important in a relationship, I SHOULD KNOW.

Any port in a storm

to what extent is musical-taste convergence important in a relationship? to what extent is a fantasy for fulfilling each other with vgetables?

huh, wait...maryann, how do you know about my musical tastes or fantasies anyway????

(ps i am going to sign off now as i am on miedication — ovah-the-counter — for my mack-ache which [this has just clicked] caused comment at work today: "mark, you sitting behind your screen giggling and talking to yourself EVEN MORE THAN USUAL" was the gist of it)

the j-lu/jel thing = a gag spoiled by all these ppl having their serious argt; the jess thing = TRUE cuz i saw it in a dream

(which reminds i dreamt abt duane last night maryann: he wasn't there, but every dilemma that presented itself, i wondered solennly WHAT WOULD DUANE DO? I didn't start the Cuprofen Max Strength till this morning either)

carry on folks you've been a swell audience (except for YOU)

mack-ache = work it out

I read that thing you wrote about British Spice-Girls fans' sun signs

That was in answer to how I knew about Vic's music tastes.

Mark S - 'What would Duane do'? That's pretty funny considering Duane's decision-making algorithm seems to always default to 'I'll just pretend to be reading this Cream magazine from 1973 and wait until everyone's gone away.' Of course that's what attracted me to him in the first place.

Dave Q - any tart in a porn? any pork in a dorm?

fyi I don't like Rush, except their early stuff

to answer your question actually (because i am expecting that you will take to heart all the posts about not judging based on weight, hmm, sir!), 5'8" at 150 pounds is not medically overweight and 170 is very slightly. (this is on the bmi system i used google for.) so i'm assuming she's not grossly fat or anythng. not skinny and not fat. (and there is a BIG range between not skinny and not fat.)

As for this:

An extremely loose guideline suggests allowing 100 lbs for 5'0" tall, and in women, another 5 lbs for each additional inch of height (men are spotted 10 lbs for each additional inch). Now, this system rightly is criticized because it doesn't allow for extremely large or small bones or much muscular development.

I don't think this is very true. It doesn't fit me and I am certain I'm not fat or overweight or anything (I'm not giving my weight, etc. on ILE).

Mark -- note that I too receive mail offering me an opportunity to "Lose 20 lbs. in One Month!," which, when translated to apply to my current weight, becomes "Wither and Die in One Month!"

I must admit that I think it pretty bad if a person goes for fat or thin. You know that if I loved a person I would take them as they are. As for myself, I am 5ft. I weigh about 160-165. Now there are others out there chubby because of thyroid control as I have I had mine removed and had a very hard time of it. I'm fine now. :) Anyway size shouldn't be an issue at all. If I wanted to meet someone do you think I'd care if he was chubby? I like hugable myself. :) :)

At 5'4", 185 lbs, I am a fat girl by anyone's standards, but I get welcome attention from both sides of the fence. Taste is taste and can't be changed by good intentions, but you may find the lady in question to be adorable, and brainwashed to think herself fat by various media.

I am thin and beautiful, but nobody likes me. I think of it as 'reverse love'.

I call what I have "self-love." It's nice when it's around and very enticing when it's not.

you have mentioned that she used to be 220 pounds, and now she is less than 170. thats quite a radical loss of weight, i hope she is healthy.

thats more than 25 kilos guys! how come nobody noticed!

I'd be dead if I lost 25 kilos.

i'd be dead too. yeah maria, it's not "groosly fat" or anything. thanks for your response. i loved your answer on that porno-damage thread so much btw, that i even bookmarked it

Why do we always have the interesting conversations while I'm locked away in the studio?

Blah blah blah, fat is a feminist issue, etc. etc.

Yes, in an ideal world, people should be happy with their body image no matter what they weigh, the tyrany of the anorexic with the airbrush is harmful to everyone.

However, I always have to say this about my own weight. When I am happy with my life, my weight drops naturally (less comfort eating, more energy) and when I am miserable, my weight increases. So mood and weight and self image are all utterly inexorably tied together, and anyone who tries to tell you that it is or should be otherwise is foolish at best.

I am 5'8" and I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that since getting out of an unhappy... situation, I have lost about a stone, just through not being miserable and not binging on chocolate every day. I'm still 165lbs, and therefore FAT, but I'm very pleased with the results. Everybody give me a big hand or I'll thwack you.

There are guidelines for how much healthy individuals of either sex should weigh if they are certain heights, and this is suppsed to be tempered for bone structure. (So there is a leeway of about 15 lbs on either side of "normal" before you're classed as medically overweight.)

I don't know what I'm blethering on about. But everybody clap for my discarded stone of useless flesh! (And there will be no quips about the 9 or 10 stone of useless flesh I discarded a few months ago, please!)

^
|
|
Its true you know

clapclapclapclapclap etc.

kate is slimmy and u know it clap your hands - clappclappclapp kate is slimmy and u know it clap your hands - clappclappclapp kate is slimmy and u know it, she's lost flesh her body shows it kate is slimmy and u know it clap your hands - clappclappclapp

oh and i just love it when i mispell words i'm KWOTING

Oh please.

Why are you bothered so much about her weight? The poor gurl must be freaking out about it if she's refusing to tell you. The internet must be one place where you can feel secure that body issues aren't a part of whatever relationship you're building - if you're that good friends she will come to talk about it to you in time. Or you know, perhaps she won't. I think you need to give her some respect and let her talk about in her own time.

And for myself, my weight does NOT change with mood and "life situations". I'm happier now than I was in a screwed up relationship too, and now I'm in a good one which DOES make me happy but oh, do I see the pounds dropping off? It's NOT that simple a correlation. My relationship with food as "coping strategy" is far too ingrained for that and perhaps it's my problem. No scratch that, it's absolutely my problem which is why I guess I don't like it when anyone generalises weight issues as I can "generally" (sigh) say it means nothing to me. I'm not having a go by the way, just saying it doesn't always work like that. I should just fucking... I dunno. or something. Sigh.

I think he just fancies her and is worried he may not be attracted to her physically which is important too. I don't think he ever ruled out the possibility of him being attracted to her if she was over-weight or whatever. I also think if he had posted it and said he was worried cos she said she had weird eyes, or a third nipple or something everyone would be a bit more lenient.

i wish i happy about my body but david says i look damn sxy.

despite the fact that they are physical features also.

Wierd eyes/third nipples being exactly the same kind of issue that weight/"fatness" issues are, right Ronan, I see your point. They're absolutely different. I didn't mean to be having a go there Vic, but I know I'm certainly very over-sensitive and can totally empathise with the girl in question in not wanting to tell anyone my exact weight - I won't to this day. I just got the howling fantods (or the shudders) thinking about it.

There is no more subjective subject than this one nowadays, Vic! 24 hours in my life: -10 pm: i wear a miniskirt to work (extreme rarity). My boss, who is suspected to be anorexic by other members of staff, comments that I must actually be more slender than I look and trousers do not make justice. Translates as: your bum looks big in that. -3.30pm: Still wearing the miniskirt. I got a free latte in the deserted espresso bar because the waiters agreed I was the most attractive woman entering the place in the whole day. It was deserted, but there you are. -8.00 pm: Ed's test's result=20.07! Due to serious health issues, I have to actually control what I eat,drink ...etc. I could go blind if I did not,for instance. But I used to be much thinner when my metabolism worked properly and I could eat rubbish.

I think the central issue here is what intentions Vic has communicated to this girl. If he has been making it clear to her that he might be interested in a romantic relationship conditional on him fancying her, and then he meets her and doesn't fancy her, then he has done nothing wrong no matter what aesthetic judgements he's making. This would be the case if his judgement was based on her having a third eye, or being fat, or the colour of her hair. (Or maybe even skin but that's a question for another thread.)

If on the other hand he's been treating her as a friend and NOT mentioning his romantic intentions and may now drop her because he doesn't fancy her, well that is bad. But it's bad because it's dishonest and manipulative, not because he doesn't fancy her cause she's fat.

The basic point is that there is nothing wrong with not fancying somebody because they are fat. I wish more people did fancy fat women (and men!) because the sum of human happiness would be increased, but if somebody has that as their 'decider' then there's nothing you can do about it and - it seems to me - no moral position you can take on it, except to privately think that person a bit shallow. Some people have a very normative perception of attractiveness and then assume that everyone else will share it and criticise them for not doing so - those people are fuckwits. But Vic isn't among them. (That said Vic hasn't caught nearly as much flak on this thread as he seems to think he has).

I dread meeting people I know online and finding that I either don't like them in real life or that I *do* fancy them!

fat bottom girls, tey make this rocking world go around...what's the bet vic is a 350 kg house-bound woman who chaffs....i love you already.

Fat girls usually jump into bed a lot quicker than their thin counterparts, anyway

hey i came here an hour and a half ago and just finished writing this really long pathological post justifyng my feelings toward phat girls. now i just realized that i didnt have to justify anything in the first place so its been cut should it be pasted?

i sort of had second thoughts about the whole thing being too personal and crazy to post, but do you guys want to read it ?

come on , tell me

vic - are you?

no geoff i am not. ok fine i'll just paste but i'm warning you this is going to be the most free-form incoherent ilx post ever and it's really er, self-indulgent? so you might just want to forget this thread...right about NOW

You've started so you might as well finish, as PAXMANG would say, post away.

All of ILE is on tenterhooks hoping for most insane post in the world... ever!

really vic babydoll we all post obscenly self indulgent whckjob posts, dahlink its our calling, so come on honey and dip into the glue and past with gay abandon.

italics thing

oh please turn off that italic thing ! hehe i'm stallin

Oh gosh. I should have expected this to keep going after I tried to go to sleep for a few hours (I have terribly insomnia tonight in particular!, so here I am back again - )..but no I certainly don't think I got as much flack as I could have, despite my flamboyant postings. I am really fortunate and grateful. I was seriously expecting like hate/hurt-feelings mail..

Um. I am glad Tom made that post, it seems to be clear what his point is in differentiating between two different types of people. I solemnly swear that I belong in the first group, because I have made it clear that we should see each other and see what happens. Mind you, she's been dating she said, I think more than 6 or 7 other guys in the past 8 months that I've on-again off-again been talking to her, so I wasn't like prohibiting her from seeing other people before I saw her. Really, i wasn't even sure if I was going to meet her until August, when she seemed to agree to it...before that she was on the fence, and we were just online friends who would flirt with each other. Ok yeah, so there were serious romantic undertones but I wasn't talking to her constantly this 8 month period. or ok can i e more honest? Wasn't it just hormonal undertones on my part ?To be honest, I saw her as this fickle high school girl (which she is), going through so many different guys in such a short time (regardless of how unserious I wanted the relationship to be. I mean, I met her in a chatroom in March where I half-seriously was trying to cyber pick someone up..very pathetic I know). I was all facile and ironic in my depravity: in like "hey, we met in a cyber room - now we should fuck!" and she would play along and it was funny, she would LOL a lot. Then over the montths as each and evey single one of her real life relationships didn't work out, somehow she got emotionally attached to me, in a way only girls can. I mean, she knows so little about me, she has never met me before or seen what I look like, but she was throwing the L-word around; that was, um, insane. I just chalked it up to being a 17 year old girl, and we didn't talk for a while since I've been emotionally...here and there...and maybe occupied or engaged elsewhere, not to another person but inside of myself..

and needed space.

I feel so dirty right now typing all this, I mean what if she walked in here, she'd die, it's her life drama for the world wide web to read. I wasn't even thinking any of this would be serious but then it got serious and then by August when I came back here I started feeling something for her too, but it was sort of minute? thing compared to her voracious need/drive to "have a boyfriend" - a longterm one i guess - since of course she felt/feels extremely lonely since "all her friends" had boyfriends but she didn't. I mean one thing she does know, that I told her on day one, was that I'm bisexual - isn't that a deterrent to girls anyway? (great thread topic, I guess) She lost her virginity to some 20 year old in august whom she knew was probably not going to see her again after he went back to college..she cried and laughed and went along with it, but it still hurt. He was one of these 6-7 guys. That need for partnership apparently...when I saw voracious, I mean voracious. Another thread topic: why does the mass media like Seventeen Magazine or Dawson's fucking Creek bbrainwash girls into thinking they need boyfriends or else their self-esteem is not complete...why do other women/girls determine a girl's worth based on whether or not she has a relationship, just like "macho" teenage guys deteremine a guy's worth based on whether he's fucked, or how much he has fucked? IS IT KATE WINSLETTE and that fdawful ship-movie's fault that all teenage girls in the past few years are made to feel inadequate if they don't have some idiot pretending to sing to them (while really he's just using her for pussy anyway, if we're playing averages) ? Oh jesus isound too cynical now.

anyway. back to the soap opera

Not only would it be immoral but I simply don't know how to post pictures up here, or else I guess I could post the pic she sent me in April and then in August. It's just a weird angle of her body in the former one, and her face in the latter; she looks so pretty in the second one. I never asked for these pictures - she just sent them to my email. In case you think it's unfair that i have her pic and she doesn't hae mine - well i never really demanded hers, and i don't have one scanned, and she just sent hers, and she never cared that i didnt send mine.

she didn't look even chubby in those pictures, needless to say, it might have been a "perfect angle" thing

then yesterday morning she says she used to be 220 pounds. after i tell her something like, " i don't care what you look like as long as you're not fat since i don't feel comfortable around fat girls." why?

WHY? because i was molested by a fat girl when i was 18 years old freshman year. i am never going to feel comfortable around them again at least for a while, sorry. i was new in that apt building and had followed new friends into her room, meeting her officially for the first time; well she seemed nice enough as i was talking to her, and then i noticed it was just me and her in the room since my friends said they were going down the hall. i weighed like 115? at the time; she was clearly at least over 260 or something, i dunno, but she took my keys away and just laughedand said i can't have them back unless i give her head, and locked her door and wouldn't let me to it. and since she was MASSIVE i couldn't just bulldoze my way through and um hell i was nervous yes, i mean this was so weird i was meeting her the very first time and was in her room the very first time when this happened. and anyway i was made to feel inadequate for the rest of the year that i "couldn't get it up " - SHE HAD ACTUALLY TOLD OTHER PEOPLE IN THE HALL THAT I HAVE A SMALL PENIS OR WHATEVER, etc. - well fuck you bitch i didn't WANt TO GET IT UP FOR you you fucking hippo!! i just somehow got out of there and somehow i did and i ran to my apt and kept brushing my teeth don't ask me why please it's not a memory i cherish

SO TO ALL YOU LURKING FEMINAZIS WHO MAY BE OUT THERE THINKING THAT ALL MEN ARE ONLY EVIL AND THAT WE ONLY OBJECTIFY WOMEN WELL FUCK YOU BECAUSE I HOPE ONE DAY YOU'LL ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WOMEN CAN DO THE EVIL DEEDS IN RETURN. AND NO ONE WILL EVER BELIEVE THE MALE SINCE WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE INVULNERABLE, RIGHT? i mean, if i knew anywhere here in real life, i'd have castrated myself at this point in their eyes...and i'm not making it up. i'm not ashamed. fat girls like Dana are atrociously powerful i didnt just want to jump out the window

jesus, now my "rape" fantasy on that dark fantasy board will look like hypocritical shit, instead of just shite. but it's the truth - what can i do? and i'm not going to screw up my karmic account by lying, not even on he internet. i mean thats partially why i'm here - i don't know ay of you freaky indie british trigger people and i;ll never meet you in real ilife so i have started feeling comfortble now so nothin' but the awful truth baby i fee l like i'm in therapy though, maybe thisisn't theoutlet for all this. sorry if i am imposing, just skip this post. my self-consciousness has achieved new depths!!

back to Suzie., the funny thing is that um, i TOLD her the whole Dana thing when her 220# came up, i mean to protect my pride yeah i did tell it to her in a humouros way butshe kept LOLing but then said "hey wait a minute, *I* used to be 220 pounds." and then i ask her her weight and she's under 170...150? she's not telling. sudenly i'm the bad guy - no further comment on my true molestation story, i guess her fucking LOLs were all that would suffice - but um, suddenly I'm the bad guy because a girl's weight is important to me? and you never TOLD me that you used to be a fat girl before either? well fuck you, but no, since my moon is in Gemini and i'm emotionally detached from everything that's happening as it's happening, i don't express any frustration (thats coming out NOW 11 hours later!). She LOLs so I follow up with ... just abnother attempt to get humorous again and say something like "i'm sure you'll find another guy who's into big girls ha ha" and that did it, she told me she can't believe what i said, she cut and pasted it even though i thought it wasso evident hat i was being ironic and totally nonsensical with that statement, she told me to fuck off and well there she signed off. and then i posted my question on here .

yeah i talked to her briefly again and oh she's still mad and oh, if i don't like who she is then too bad and o h, i'm sorry suzie, "well of i'm not mad anymore but i realized if you don't like me for who i am..fuck you" ok ok ok. so i really probably shouldn't even meet this gorl, should i? i'm really questioning my motivations here, really. since yes, maybe i just wanted to basically hook up at first in march, i didn't know i'm going to be keep developing this friendship here, and well i always knew i had no game and probably would't meet the girl and get lucky, but i didn't know that she'd develop some sort of emotional thing for me. i want to fuck her because well this is only part of the reason, i really do like her as a person, geez, but yes, i'm a virgin with girls at 21 and it would be an ego thing since i am already considered culturally abnormal, just ask someone like Ronan who is around my age and would know it's the most shameful thing for a boy to be over 17 and still innocent. and it doesn't just have to do with cultural reasons ( remember how i'm an ethnic child? my brother remained virginal until 26 and a half, after his arranged fucking marriage he finally experienced physical love, and i bought the pre-marital = innocence ideal for a while, when i was young and idealistic and whoa, what the fuck, i never was. my mom still cant say the word sex inour house though she spells it s-e-x, ir's all sin, they don't know about me = queer part, but they kind of do, do think i'm odd. actyually thats a whole nother post, because ...) - i'm going to be honest again, it's cause of Dana. i have been really REALLY anxious since i wasn't able to "get it up" that night with her and never ask girls out and sort of use that incident to attack myself and tell myself that hey you're really gay not bi, don't lie "you're a half man, you're not virile" and whoopee i guess ******i am as guilty**** as suzy for buying into the media-engendered gendered-(haha)-myths as she is. but i kind of am so nervous about trying with a girl since what if that whole situation happens again..even though, um, i wasn't really TRYING that time since i didnt want anything to happoen, i was just trrying to get out of there, i was just too scared, and even though um, i can still masturbate about girls and get it up fine when i do that and eveything. so i guess it's not logical..but making love to yourself with the security of your own palm in your own house is diffeent han with another girl, and i'm scared of the Dana situation reoccuring, especially if the girl is somewhat chubby and then i'd never be attracted to her AT ALL. somewhat chubby...like suzy? this is why i'm too scared to ask girls out in real life and resorted to online thing with "nice girls" like suzy in the first place!! how did i know she was going to be "heavyset" and WHY DIDN'T SHE SAY SO 8 MONTHS AGO ? i warned you about this being the WORST ilx post ever - i am being totally honest and vulnerable here, this is so crazy, i haven't even thought about all this myself. you can tel i'm thinking as i'm typing... Suzy she knows i'm a virgin, she herself was one til august remember, hell i think she's even counter-objectified me cause she said once "i was talking to this nice/innnocnt boy last night ..like you..he was a VIRGIN...like you.." well geez, she knows i've been with guys, but if she knew HOW MANY (doing anything i'm not really into anal sorry) would she still think i'm innocnt ?

so it's a really omplicated question the whole thing. dont think though that 'coz my life is so pathetic i wrote that suicide post cause i didn't, i ve only posted on a few threds on herre, offending people on each one (fobs, etc). my conscience is like..well if you just want to fuck her to assert/prove your masculinity by losing your V, and not develop a relationship with her then you're evil but wait a minute, don't girls sometimes fuck just to fuk\ck too (why do guys have to be made to feel "guilty" here, or can't you see all my parental taboos coming into play)?? but it won't be Su. i only talked to her on the phone twice so far (she called the long-distance) and she already cried for 10 minutes during one of them when i told her i don't know if i want to like, marry her..

anf like i said i have been emotionally engaged.. well.. LIKE I SAID IN THAT "describe who you are" thread i am still emotionally recovering from this really traumatic mental breakdown i had a few years ago, and...and i feel very strongly towards this guy..and he precipiated parts of this breakdown...but it also has this spiritual dimension, i can't descfribe it since like i said in that thread, no one would believeme but that's he MOST INTERESTING and vital part about me and about anyhuman, my soul, i got so fucked up emotionally that "spiritual things" happened, thats the only way i can describe them, i can't say more. it's kind of hard to take all this when you're a teenager and still want to fit in (18/19 is still a teenager) and i know i have a bizzare life and a pretty dificult one, but i'm thankful for it since i'm paing off massive, MASSIVE karmic debts here. don't you have to destroy the mind in otrder to know God, didn't Nietzche experience the Kundalini too ? if i never learned to meditate i wuld never have broken down in the first place, and the experience came directly from God, so i can't blame myself... exactly how am i supposed to control those things anyway, i mean...it all started when I was 14. i really shouldn't have mentioned it.

i really shoouldn't have mentioned it. what harm can be done now?

this guy, i have feelings for him still and this girl...she hasn't even met me but sill has to demonstrate feelings of possessiveness. hey, you don't own me, i'm nt even the guy you FUCKED in august but i could have been but i waited.. i wanted it to mean something when i made love to you..i didn't knowyou were going to turn out to be FA. and lie to me for 8 months.

she's possessive. she knows i'm emotionallyextremely complex (all my 12th house planets, in air/water signs like i said) and she knows about this guy, she even knows the fact that i was told by so many different people that i have past live relaitionships with him stretching way back, but she had the audactity to say i should just desire her. hell she's never even met me before and him, i went to school with him and have known him since 1993 but she has to send me BLINK182 (does this answer why i hate the Tom?>) lyrics like "i want to make love to a toaster, I WANT TO BE YOUR ONLY ONE." well FUCK OFF CUNT YOU CAN'T BE MY ONLY ONE you could have at least been truthful to me i waited a very long time for yo, i reallly did want things to be special WHY DON'T YOU even want to understad my terribly insecriity with girls was instigated by a fat girl itself a FAT GIRL LIKE YOURSELF? i feel no remorse. i have to be ever-patient and apologetic why do you have to be an emotional vampire..

so i really shouldn't meet her then. cause i'm a bad man, an evil male, and don't want a relationship, just wantd a nice cyberchatroom lay, and she developed this relationship, and my self-loathing and dysfunctional past and astral imbalances and physical ungroundedness and performance insecuirities would get in the way anyway, but she wouldn't be attention, cause she's just a self-cenetered teenage girl who wants a boyfriend since all her friends have one. i don't want to be her boyfriend; she wont want to fuck me. i am not good at lying. i need a WHORE. she doesn't realize that she may need to do without relationships for a while and start focusing on building her own confidence, instead of deriving her self-esteem based on whether she has a boyfriend or not, besids i'm 125 and i f she really is 167 she'd crush me. that would bring back bad memories and id have to listen to limp bizkit i'm doing it all for thecookie stick it up YOUR YEAH SUZY, YOUR GODDAMNED YEAH. Gale, does this answer your question abou t my past with intimacy ? oh and please dont anyone tell me to get therapy for anything, since *obviously* ii've had to write western psychiatry as a rule off after well, when i was 17 i described a spiritual experience i had had in which i was disconnected from my body (huge internal painful orgasmic sensation) and they wanted to have me COMMITTED, right then and there. can't trust the bastards - my parents saved my ass... but really, they're all fakers. oh the counselor was a "yoga practitioner" too ..slmost fooled me jerfoff!!! ALMOST!!!!!!!!!!!! they just don't understand the inner workings of consciousness, astral realms, and then blame evreything on one catch-all under-the-rug word, "schizophrenia" which basically means: "disoders" about the mind we still don't understand. lock 'em up ! aand shock them! wqhat if youu're already getting electric shocks from da INSIDE!!?>

well well. i guess i learned what a blog is for after all. i really feel sorry for taking up so much space and for ayone who actually stated to read this. i feel extremely naked now, ge i wonder why. i wonder if i can even ever come back here again, not that i have any sense of embarassment left anyway. thanks for everyone who responded - you're al rerally nice guys... and so witty too. especially the british indie people

Nick, you're still more insane. Sorry.

Damn it Nick why didnt you mention that before best-post-ever nominations closed.

Vic - wow, a lot of stuff here. Basically I think this girl probably isn't ready/able to understand the very intense and dramatic situations you're talking about - she's still discovering herself and her own attitude to relationships and working things out about her own body image, so having to process this idea that women can be aggressors and abusers and that this can warp somebody's notions about size issues is likely to be a bit difficult, especially as the situation exploded so soon after your mutual 'confessions'.

I don't think she was 'lying' to you incidentally - she didnt say she was fat but did she say she wasn't? If somebody starts chatting with me then unless the subject comes up I'm not going to say I'm overweight because it really doesn't define me - this is the luxury of the internet, to reduce the importance of those kind of things.

An extremely loose guideline suggests allowing 100 lbs for 5'0" tall, and in women, another 5 lbs for each additional inch of height (men are spotted 10 lbs for each additional inch). Now, this system rightly is criticized because it doesn't allow for extremely large or small bones or much muscular development.

I don't think this is very true. It doesn't fit me and I am certain I'm not fat or overweight or anything (I'm not giving my weight, etc. on ILE).

That's why I qualified it, saying that it's an extremely generous guideline and that it's criticized on these and other grounds. But of course the real problem is the loathing many women (particularly me) have for their bodies.

"Wierd eyes/third nipples being exactly the same kind of issue that weight/"fatness" issues are, right Ronan, I see your point. They're absolutely different."

You don't see my point at all, sorry. Or if you did you could at least take a minute to show me where I'm so wrong since direct contradiction without any evidence has never done much to change my mind, funny that. Why are some physical features that people can be insecure about any different to others? . I realise my use of weird eyes or third nipples as an example was glib, but the question still stands. Just because weight issues affect more people does not mean they are different to any other areas of their body people feel insecure about, or does it? What am I missing? Point still remains that if Vic had been saying the girl was really worried about some other aspect of her body, or something more obscure he wouldn't have had to be quite so careful would he? Nothing to do with importance as far as I can see, it's just because more people have fuckin history on this subject. Pretty obvious as soon as the poor guy started the thread someone was getting offended within an hour or two, regardless of what he said. You're doomed as soon as you start the fucking thread, no amount of caution is enough. God I don't mean to argue all the time or whatever, I don't think what I say is particularly stupid or outrageous but there you go. And if I sound confrontational it's not intentional.