Best Album from Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale from the mixtapes the story is supposedly reconstructed from according to the Historical Notes in the back

Restricting women's bank accounts was after banning them from work, and there was a small hint at elevated police state at that point from which I think you're supposed to infer they were already in charge.

This is probably challopish, but. The global infertility epidemic is essential to the plot of the book, movie, and series. Without widespread infertility there would be no need for the handmaid system.

Gilead without a fertility crisis would still be an oppressive theocracy, and noncomforming women's lives would certainly suck (as would the lives of nonconforming men). But if the wives of the Elect could have had their own! babies, then they would have simply done so, and you'd basically have a continent-sized Utah on Steroids.

When people say that contemporary American conservatives are treating THT as a handbook rather than a dystopian cautionary tale, they omit this key wrinkle. I'm sure some conservatives harbor lots of desire to implement Gileadean policies. But without infertility, Jeff Sessions wouldn't necessarily be issued an Ofjeff.

I agree with you but that undermines the use of people who haven't been proven as fertile as Handmaids. And while America could uniquely have all the fertile women left in the world because plot reasons, the apparent fact that Mexico will set up an illegal skin trade because of it but Canada dgaf is just weird.

These are a lot of presumptions to undermine the plausibility of what remains a sci-fi show, Aldo. The lesbian character might just have had a child by being pregnant. The Canadian governement might to be still too practice trade slavery.

There is definitively no 'light shrug' as we are seen characters trying to escape (Moira), show immense pain (June), others thrown into the abyss of mental ilness (Janine), suicide (previous Offred), and some even rebelling (Ofglen).

Better just to link the horrors of Gilead to horrors of the past and present, and ideologies of some politicians.

One lesbian could have had the kid, but not both (as happened).

I think my point on Canada isn't that they're not practicing slavery, more that after 3 years with no kids they're going "pff no biggie". Genuinely Mexico are the only country asking questions about whether Gilead can help them?

5 counter examples (or even 5%) out of half the population counts as a light shrug in my book when it comes to an overnight conversion to farming women.

aldo otm Atwood drives me up the wall - a shitty writer imo, given a pass because of her provocations but is ultimately surpassed in the exploration of her themes by other, better, lesser known (at least in mainstream lit) "genre" writers (Tiptree, Butler, LeGuin, Russ etc.)

That is about 80% of the characters we see on screen. If you really just get the sense from that show that the light shrug is the de facto behaviour from woman, and not some way to pretend to the men in power that things are okay because any act of rebellion is met with hanging (or bullets, in the case of the protest), then there is something you don't get about how cinematic language works or maybe you underrate how dictatorships can happen so quickly? I doubt the east germans met their fate with a light shrug.

and artificial insemination is a thing. Ofglen can get pregnant.

'ha if only, if only women had rebelled earlier, not just met their fate with a light shrug maybe they wouldn't have been the victims of abusive patriarchy for more than 3000 years'

I completely get how cinematic language works, that it doesn't have to make sense in the real world but equally that doesn't make it immune to people pointing out that it doesn't. (And this is my bigger point about dystopic fiction I suppose, that the world building often doesn't stand up when you pull back from the narrow focus of the protagonists.)

I think we see more Handmaids than you think. There's at least 100 of them in the crowd that kick that one to death, for example. I wasn't suggesting these 5 are the only ones (and I completely accept many are internalising their pain) but the overwhelming majority are at a minimum accepting what's happening and at worst gleefully complicit.

Don't understand what you mean by either your East German or your insemination references, not to mention your third strawman.

but the overwhelming majority are at a minimum accepting what's happening and at worst gleefully complicit.

that is one assumption i'm not ready to make.

how would this state even function if an overwhelming majority *weren't* complicit

and isn't that a recurring theme of dystopian fiction in general - societies' willful, even eager, participation in their own oppression

Then you're reading something into it which isn't on screen (although I accept the metatext is supposed to be "OBVIOUSLY everyone is against this because it's so OBVIOUSLY wrong, but then that also plays to the romantic " and of course we didn't go along with any of it" told by every survivor of a dictatorship ever, he says struggling to avoid Godwin's Law or similar). Xpost

I don't know, if my friends were hanged for being catholics
and a protest I participed was met with bullets raining down on me, if didn't have access to cash or any form of legal power, if state surveillance was widespread then I doesn't really matter if i were complicit or not. Personally, I know I would fall in line, like so many people have done in the past, I would accept that is what is happening because sometimes in life you really have no choice. The character of Offred express remorse at not seeing this happen earlier.
The quasi-absence of female solidarity is also important here, some people are eager to participate in this new republic because it gives them power.

And women have lived under abusive patriarchy for a very long time now, are they complicit or eager? Maybe I'm wrong, I am not a woman, but from I gathered the answer is no.

To quote myself from about 5 posts ago

the overwhelming majority are at a minimum accepting what's happening

or, as you put it, "accept that is what is happening"

at worst gleefully complicit

or, as you put it, "eager to participate in this new republic".

This show has really bad music (that Heart of Glass cover BARF) and the filters on the cam get real fuckin twizzy it looks like a goddamn Marilyn Manson video smh.

I don't care for series most of the time, but this one is ace.

Facebook acquaintance just yesterday attended the opening of a new restaurant called Twisted Sisters

Cause doing multiple seasons in, hem hem, the 'Handmaid universe' sounds like it could devolve real quick into bad fan-fiction.

it just occurred that mark's canada journey could be a backdoor pilot for fear the handmaid's tale

Restricting women's bank accounts was after banning them from work, and there was a small hint at elevated police state at that point

Bank and work things happened at the same time, and there was an explicit mention that they are under martial law.

One lesbian could have had the kid, but not both (as happened).

Ofglen said she had a wife but she escaped to canada? So, one fertile lesbian handmaid.

the overwhelming majority are at a minimum accepting what's happening and at worst gleefully complicit.

What I thought the first episode made chillingly clear was how easy it would be to force people into acceptance, for the fear that anyone you talk to might be gleefully complicit.

Haven't got to anything about Mexico yet but Canada, idk maybe there are some countries in the world that have managed to decide that even in the face of such a plague, brutal enslavement of half the population and slaughter of resistors is nagl.

the ending of ep 4 might have seemed a little less inappropriate if that penguin cafe orchestra track hadn't already been used in a fucking bank advert.

bank advert callback probably deliberate.

I'm another who doesn't think fertility crisis adds much- High status males impose sexual slavery on low status younger females in the name of religion, with co-operation/acquiescence of high status females. As Atwood has said, most of the stuff in HT is drawn from history- fertility crisis seems out of place here.

Book related query (rather than answering the thread title) but if I had a vague idea that I might read this ... is it one to make sure I've read before the end of the series or will it be just as good having watched the series?

I'm only up to ep7 but this thread hasn't been too spoilery yet. Can someone explain who is meant to believe that the system of ritual monthly rape of handmaids is supposed to produce babies? I was going along with the idea that it's all part of oppression of women etc but in the last ep or two it seems like Gilead genuinely WANT babies - as a symbol of something they can trade. So why this weird system where commanders, wives etc are ok with rape but only in a way that's almost guaranteed to minimise any chance of pregnancy? (I.e. just once a month, by someone whose fertility is totally unknown, no doctors etc)

*as a symbol of something they can trade, if nothing else

The ceremonies are meant to sync with the handmaidens *most* fertile period, from 5 to 0 days before ovulation.

yes, I know. But doing it once per month is not a good strategy for babbies even if you are Captain Fertile.

I did imagine there was some kind of faith in "His Eye" or whatever God they obey I guess.

One thing that bothered me about this show, which I guess would have also bothered me about the book if I'd read it, is the phrase "may the lord open" (said in response to "under his eye"). What does that mean? It doesn't appear to be from the Bible. May the lord open what? His eye?

So why this weird system where commanders, wives etc are ok with rape but only in a way that's almost guaranteed to minimise any chance of pregnancy? (I.e. just once a month, by someone whose fertility is totally unknown, no doctors etc)

― kinder, Monday, 17 July 2017 06:53 (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

maybe gilead assumes the trade nation will rape the women all the time and just doesn't care

well yeah, that assumes no other nations actually wants babies really and everyone's just in it for the rapin'. otherwise they need some marker of 'success'

i really enjoyed s1 of this - love the colours and the sets, genuinely horrifying at times.

only thing i don't like are the terrible musical bits. the music choices don't fit with the show and the desperation for them to have some kind of "badass" twitter gif feeling is palpable. also the celebratory feeling of say, the nina simone bit in the finale - as emotional as the stoning resistance scene was, it's hardly like you'd be over the fucking moon after it. the entire world is so completely hopeless.

agreed.

The music is my biggest recurring problem with the series as well. Aside from either being too on the nose ("You Don't Own Me"), inappropriate (see xpost) or just plain cringeworthy (that horrid cover of "Heart of Glass"), they mostly just jar the viewer out of the reality of the show. The only effective musical bit in the entire series, to date, is when Kylie's "Can't Get You Out of My Head" suddenly appears on the soundtrack during a jump to a flashback. And that's how it should be: any musical presence in the show should remind us of it's being just one more glaring absence in this world.

the music worked for me, because it served as reminder that this world and these people are the same as ours, and that gilead is a giant artifice that hasn't changed hearts or minds. we're seeing the world through june's eyes, and feeling her rapid jumps between hope and despair. she's not one of them, she's one of us.

it just doesn't feel real at all though. the entire tone of the show is so deeply grim and horrific, like they set up a scene in which they're asked to stone a person to death. and okay they manage to resist this, with another person getting beaten in the face and held at gunpoint. then they use "feeling good" which has prob been used on like chocolate ads or something, as if some form of euphoria would be possible in those circumstances, or as if resistance would result in that kind of euphoria. the ep that ends with "nolite te bastardes carborundorum bitches" is also really jarring - who is she talking to? it sounds like the audience.

at times the show has been good at showing this is a world which seems like 100 or 200 years ago, but actually is taking place in the present, but it hasn't earned the right to just leap into 2017 with indie music and sleek music video type cuts etc. it's silly. the whole show is dark and grey for the vast majority of it, it's one of the more bleak tv series of recent times, they should just lean in to that. the resistance stuff would be even stronger if they didn't cheapen it by trying to give it these incongruously happy payoffs.

"is the phrase "may the lord open" (said in response to "under his eye"). What does that mean? It doesn't appear to be from the Bible. May the lord open what? His eye?"

may the lord open YOUR SLUT LEGS, HANDMAIDEN

really curious as to where they take this now .

The first episode of S2 was absolutely brilliant, stomach-churning stuff. The fact that they're going beyond the source text means they can take this in all kinds of fruitful directions. Like apparently they show the Colonies for example.

I loved the use of "This Woman's Work" at the beginning, and the vertiginous camera angles that emphasise the idea of surveillance. And Moss's acting is truly miraculous.

I watch the first and second eps of S2. Completely agree that it is brilliant. Some definite heart-racing moments.

Also, im starting to not like Luke at all.

I loved the use of "This Woman's Work" at the beginning

this was verging on self-parody for me. Show is always at its worst in the heavily soundtracked scenes

Agreed. The “Heart of Glass” cover still stands out as the serried nadir for me, so far.

it feels like it’s there to remind us that the world is this world, i mean yes we know that, but the regular reinforcement brings it back home. without it the world might feel more and more distant. not that music cues are necessarily the best way of achieving this.

It also follows an annoying trend that goes back at least a decade of slow, “serious” covers of old pop songs on contemporary tv series. The ads for the Dynasty reboot feature a draggy cover of “Everybody Wants to Rule the World,” and I remember one of the teen shows from a few years back having a similar cover of OMD’s “If You Leave.” I suppose the “Mad World” cover from Donnie Darko is to blame.

makes the show absolutely unwatchable for me but i understand i am a fuckin weirdo

I suppose the “Mad World” cover from Donnie Darko is to blame.

oh yeah, this has ruined everything

judging from comments on here I think I'll avoid this like the plague. Also Moss being such a fucking vacuous scientologist puts me off watching anything with her in it now, yeah probably ridiculous - but it's the way I roll!

judging from comments on here I think I'll avoid this like the plague.

95% of it is excellent though

this is very good btw, despite stating the obvious

well yes, but I don't know what you meant by "turns out the commander was nick all along"

that was a very bad joke about spoilers for uk viewers

I thought it was a good joke. I lolled at any rate.

The commander killing nick is intriguing but let’s remember Serena told him a while back the baby wasn’t his because he’s ‘not man enough’ to make babby.

Speaking of which, if all of the gilead men are sterile, why isn’t nick?

I thought it was a good joke. I lolled at any rate.

<3

The commander killing nick is intriguing but let’s remember Serena told him a while back the baby wasn’t his because he’s ‘not man enough’ to make babby.

completely forgot about this! there is so much going on in this show that it’s impossible to remember it all.

Another question I had last night: what happens when all the handmaids are too old to bear children? WhTs the plan in Gilead then? Are they prepping some of the children for future handmaid roles? Who knows

I thought it was interesting that the black dude was having a baby with his wife.

So clearly not all the men are sterile, just a lot of them, maybe most.

Another question I had last night: what happens when all the handmaids are too old to bear children?

this is covered really well in the book, iirc they become marthas

i know i’m harping on about the torture porn aspect, but it’s so magnified and so heavily played out that it’s completely taken me out of the show. i can’t see it for what it is any more, all i can see is the writers’ room trying its hardest to manufacture horrifying crescendos.

Yeah, I'm done with the show for that very reason.

A shame, as I just heard Bradley Whitford is joining the cast.

I dropped out after the first episode of season 2 cos of the torture stuff. Was wondering whether it'd be worth going back, but if that kept up then no chance.

it kept up. some of the set pieces just escalate the point that this is a terrible place with terrible people, like the way they found new and progressively more horrifying ways to stage rape scenes (not a spoiler for this show tbh).

bradley Whitford is a new kind of fucking horrible monster

or....maybe not. it's hard to tell yet.

being the architect of gilead's economy (?) puts him up there, but then every gilead architect/official is a horrible monster so

yeah I think the jury's still out on Lawrence, he could turn out to be some kind of heretic or even the covert leader of the resistance.

So it looks like I was kind of right about Lawrence. Incredible final episode.

i mean

also moss’s ~face acting~ is well beyond farcical at this point

i just, i don’t get that ending at all, i don’t get why anyone would choose to stay in THAT (avoiding spoilers here), apart from guaranteeing there’ll be a third series of this particular show and not, say, a thoughtful spinoff series set in canada

and even the notion that we’d ever feel even a tiny bit sorry for the woman who was heavily instrumental in the show’s most brutal and horrifying rape scene (which reminded me of those bits in downfall when hitler was being nice to his receptionist or whatever)

I have no problem with posting spoilers here. If you don't want to know what's happening you should avoid the thread until you've caught up. That's what I did in the Americans thread.

I think the idea is that she wants to stay behind to rescue her daughter.

exactly; in fact it would have been weird, really, for her to have left completely.

critical reactions to this finale seem really off the mark to me, saying it's left the series nowhere to go. if she'd escaped, that would have been true. there's certainly many places it can go.

think the ending made perfect sense. the first time she tried to leave, she hadn't seen her daughter except from a passing car, and Gilead was still fairly strong, so she probably felt like she had to accept starting over without her daughter.

now that Gilead's starting to crack (*26* commanders died, Canada expelled their diplomats, strict embargoes/sanctions), she's briefly reunited with her daughter Hannah, and she's formed much closer bonds with the Handmaids and knows them all by name, she's having a hard time saving herself and not staying behind to help everyone she loves in the fight against Gilead's government, now in a weakened state.

Her M.O. in almost the entirety of the last quarter of episodes is ensuring her daughter isn't born in a hostile, oppressive environment, and begging to see her first daughter. she's started to put her own needs aside and even smacked Commander Fred knowing that he could have her killed for it.

it isn't as if she's staying cos "ey, I kinda like it here now" or "boohoo Serena"....she's been through a lot with her fellow handmaids since the first escape attempt!

i agree that it makes sense that she would stay to try to rescue Hannah. I do think she can't really go back to the Waterfords' sans baby though, so might be interesting to see where she ends up - whether she'd go into hiding again or be sent to the colonies/some other horrible punishment.

Anyone still going with this? I'm halfway through season 4 and I don't think I can take another season of she gets captured, she escapes, she gets captured, she escaped, for ever and ever

A bit of discussion (not much) here:

Thread for discussion of the Hulu adaptation of Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale

thanks! Thought I would've had it bookmarked but hadn't!

I see I commented there that I'd started S3 so I must have finished it, but no interest in S4 (because of what I thought of S3).